Major, is it worth it?

[kurtm]

Pat has it down! Only as a side deal between friends is major going to be competitive, although I will go out on a limb and say that I think I will do rather well at the Arkansas sectional 3-gun in limited even with the "insurmountable" recoil difference. On a 40 second stage with about 36-40 rifle rounds to be expended I am usually 3-4 seconds off the fast AR guys. Some of this is reload time and of course some is recoil. All things being equall I would always shoot an AR in a major match!

Warpspeed missed the M1A choice, Sam and I will be using the M1A and only Benny will have the optic sighted AR-10, I think I will use the 20 round M1A mags as well. This will be kind of a wood versus plastic matchup

AH6IP, any chance of making it out to Arkansas??? It is a good match and only about 6-7 hours from your place. Let me know so I can arrange rooms!!

2, 4, 6.8 who do we appreciate.....308

REMEBER, BENNY........BALL AMMO ONLY!! (M118 and special ball is ball) KURTM

[NukeMech]

You guys are going to have to let us know how the match goes... Wish I could be there.

[warpspeed]

Pat & Kurt,

I was answering NukeMech's original question. He asked about that set up , the AR-10 A4. That's all. no more no less

[Zak Smith]

hopalong,

If we're talking Major as in USPSA, then we already have specialized equipment left and right. No John Q Shooter (not into IPSC) is likely to have a 38Super/9x23 double-stack, or to load 40SW to 1.200" ?

I've been shooting 6.8SPC since March, and I have 15 and 25 round mags. My shipment of 2000 unfired cases will arrive tomorrow, after long delay. I can't make Major with the powders out there now, but I hope that will change soon.

Kurt,

Until we have "Can hunt Elk and Lion with it" in the USPSA rule book, I guess we'll have to use 320PF. I wouldn't use a 110gr 308 for either of those either.

AH6IP,

There has allegedly been some powder development in the last year to produce something better for the SPC. I heard from someone working with a "NDA" powder (ie, they couldn't disclose the specific details) that the 115gr @ 2815 was doable from an 18" bbl. In any case, it'd probably be easier to make Major with the Grendel.

[rhino]

I think whether or not major is "worth it" depends on personal tempermant. Some shooters, especially newer shooters, are so concerned with speed that they don't always get good hits. Shooting minor, a B/C hurts and a D is essentially a no-penalty miss. Under the same circumstance, shooting major may be of benefit.

Another thing is that having more respect for a .308 might lead some to be more careful about shot placement. Obviously that's not an issue for NukeMech because I doubt if he will note much difference between .308 and .223 other than the rate at which the gun cycles. But he's an unusual specimen!

[Dead Buff]

Is major worth it?

OH YES!!! It feels like a real gun! (Talking real major here - 155gr at 2750fps at least... )

For winning stuff...unluckily .223 currently rules.

I shoot a FN FAL, and guess what - its fun and I'm never at the bottom...

[kurtm]

Sam has dropped into the dark side with an "optic" on his M1A, but I will still use the irons intended by the Army board that accepted ( what were they thinkin!) the M14! I think it will be mighty interesting in October!!

Zak, who in the heck makes a pansy bullet for the 7.62 X 51mm?? 110gr...blasphemy!!! Oh and you are right, since it isn't in the rule book, we will have to accept the 320 number. In a few years it will probably be down a few more points so as to allow very marginal cartridges to "make" major anyway. I can see this going the way of the Olympics. Used to be they used real rifle cartridges in some of the shooting comps, but now it's all .22 LR. I can see a time where .17 Hornady will be the rage for USPSA rifle "major" and .177 pellets will be minor. Just think, if we drop the power factor just a bit more even the "heavy .223 rounds could make it. Remember one man's "major" is another man's "minor"....well in some 3rd world armys anyway. I also think that with majic powder .218 Bee will be the ticket with a 100gr bullet with a B.C. of.709 made of pure unobtainium. Just have to figure out how to get the rimmed case to feed from the 80 round light weight drum

Warpspeed, I am just having fun with all of this and mean no harm You too Zak.!! KURTM

[Paule]

In the interest of a fair comparison, here is some ballistics info that might be illuminating. I will try to give a representative snapshot of three different loads. 7.62 Nato (M80) 147 gr FMJ, 6.8SPC 115gr OTM (current Remington load), and 6.5Grendel 144gr FMJBT. Drops are based on 300 meter zero. Drift based on 10mph crosswind.

7.62 Nato

muzzle - 2700 fps - 2379 ft.lbs energy -

300m - 2051 fps - 1373 ft.lbs energy - drop 0" - drift 9.48"

600m - 1511 fps - 745 ft.lbs energy - drop -89.50" - drift 43.94"

1000m - 1063 fps - 368 ft.lbs energy - drop -491.29" - drift 144.55"

Energy drops below 500 ft.lbs beyond 800 yards

6.8SPC

muzzle - 2700 fps - 1861 ft.lbs energy -

300m - 1916 fps - 938 ft.lbs energy - 0" - drift 12.05"

600m - 1313 fps - 440 ft.lbs energy - drop -104.79" - drift 57.77"

1000m - 945 fps - 228 ft.lbs energy - drop -615.11" - drift 185.82"

Energy drops below 500 ft.lbs beyond 540 yards

6.5Grendel

muzzle - 2450 fps - 1919 ft.lbs energy -

300m - 2004 fps - 1284 ft.lbs energy - 0" - drift 7.50"

600m - 1612 fps - 831 ft.lbs energy - drop -92.31" - drift 33.26"

1000m - 1213 fps - 471 ft.lbs energy - drop -455.76" - drift 105.30"

Energy drops below 500 ft.lbs beyond 950 yards

Based on ballistics alone, it is easy to see that the 308 is not necessarily superior, even for hunting tasks, especially as ranges get longer. Now I would not personally hunt elk at longish ranges with a .308 (nor a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8SPC), but there are those who point to 500 ft lbs. of energy as being a minimum amount for non-dangerous big game hunting. All three meet this requirement out to beyond 500 yards, and the Grendel actually beats the .308, staying supersonic beyond 1000 yards or so, the .308 goes subsonic at less than 900. Even the 175 gr SMK goes subsonic short of 1000 yards, and has more wind drift than the 6.5Grendel.

I think the jury is still far from deciding this. While I love my 7.62x51's, I also have 6.8SPC and 6.5Grendel uppers for the AR platform.

Until a magical transformation occurs, I'll still hunt elk with my .338 Winmag, or my bow. (230fps and a 120 gr broadhead, lots of "laydown power").

[kellyn]

I shot my way to 2d in the 2002 USPSA Limited 3 Gun and Limited Rifle shooting major (a .260 remington with both 120 and 140 bullets). I even shot one rifle stage faster than all but one or two open shooters. Of course, I was not able to unseat Mr. Cooley.

I think the way to shoot major with a .308 is to have 2 loads, a heavy bullet going slow short-range load and a lighter bullet going fast long range load. With a .308 shooting 220 bullets, you only have to go 1455 fps to make 320 pf! Talk about low recoil! Of course I would not launch such a round at a 300 plate hence the need for a 125-150 grain load for those stages.

But this is all a HUGE pain in the ass! Making different loads, knowing the zeroes for the loads. It so much simpler to shoot minor. Plus it's FAR cheaper to shoot .223. And with the proliferation of steel targets for the long range shots, major gets you nothing, except increased recoil.

But nothing beats hitting one of those plates and actually seeing it rock!

[George]

Kelly makes a very important point about steel becoming the target of choice on long distance stages. Given this trend, the scoring for major is gonna have to reward the shooter even more for paper to make up for it. You would almost have to double the major score value on paper to make up for the advantage the .223 has when there are a large number of LD steel to be shot in a match. Unless you control stage design, major scoring changes based on paper target values alone are not going to even things out.

Heavy Metal/He Man may be the better way to make major rifles competitive. If you want it to be fair across the board, major rifles really need to only run against each other given present course design trends.

--

Regards,

[kimel]

I suppose one could build a steel flasher target with two different colored "flashes". Kind of a long range ballistic pendulum. Say white flash for the minor hit and an orange flash for a major hit. Score it differently given the two different flashes and reward major....or real quick double taps from minor to rock the flasher up to that more valuable flash. Might be fun to play with anyway.

OR

Require minor to hit the flashers twice and major to hit them once. However, this might tip the scales too far toward major....or not. Maybe twice for major and thrice for minor would be more balanced. It sure would up the round count on some stages.

[EricW]

Or...let's dump all the mouse gun crap and make everybody shoot a mismatched M1 Garand that gets randomly picked out of a barrel - just like the good old days. We could call it the "Bloody Thumb" division.

[rhino]

That's too girly.

We should all use those H&R single shot handi-rifles in .338 Lapua Mag. With just a bead on the front for sights.

[Helmut]

Kurt,

After seeing your post on the 110's........Yes I am a GIRLIE MAN!

Take Care

Garret

[kimel]

Or...let's dump all the mouse gun crap and make everybody shoot a mismatched M1 Garand that gets randomly picked out of a barrel - just like the good old days. We could call it the "Bloody Thumb" division.

Garands? That isn't THAT manly. Mismatched 03's. None of that recoil absorbing autoloader pansy assed stuff. Work that bolt, feel the recoil.

Wanna be real men? Start with them in cosmoline at the start of the match. You get your rifle 30 minutes before the first stage. Strip 'em, clean 'em, reassemble 'em. Fire 'em. It was good enough for your grandfathers (or greatgrandfathers).

THAT is manly man shooting.

I carried Dad's sporterized 03A3 deer hunting for several years. It isn't a tack driver but it is good enough for hunting and 3-gun.

[EricW]

Garands? That isn't THAT manly. Mismatched 03's. None of that recoil absorbing autoloader pansy assed stuff. Work that bolt, feel the recoil.

Wanna be real men? Start with them in cosmoline at the start of the match. You get your rifle 30 minutes before the first stage. Strip 'em, clean 'em, reassemble 'em. Fire 'em. It was good enough for your grandfathers (or greatgrandfathers).

THAT is manly man shooting.

I carried Dad's sporterized 03A3 deer hunting for several years. It isn't a tack driver but it is good enough for hunting and 3-gun.

Alright Bubba, you're on! I've got my daddy's O3 sporterized as well. If I dig, I can find the stripper clips for it. I will be using Genuine liberated, American WWII surplus ammo.

Of course, I have a high-zoot peep sight on the back - because I'm a gamer.

Let's see if P.E. Kelley is tough enough to dig out the big iron.

[NukeMech]

Wanna be real men?  Start with them in cosmoline at the start of the match.  You get your rifle 30 minutes before the first stage.  Strip 'em, clean 'em, reassemble 'em.  Fire 'em.  It was good enough for your grandfathers (or greatgrandfathers).

THAT is manly man shooting.

I carried Dad's sporterized 03A3 deer hunting for several years.  It isn't a tack driver but it is good enough for hunting and 3-gun.

Why don't we just chuck spears or huck rocks at the targets...

[rhino]

Because I throw like a girl.

Which is probably an insult to little girls everywhere, because they mostly throw a lot better than I do.

[hopalong]

Zak,

Just now got to read your response to my post of easy to find equipment.

here is what I really meant.

If I want to get into rifle or 3 gun and go down to my local gun supply the only 2 choices I have are the AR-15 in several different set ups or the M1A in 3 different set ups now ( standard M1A, Scout/Squad rifle, SOOCOM).

all else would have to be ordered or built excetera.

Glad our shooters in our sport are always looking for more or something better as it only helps the rest of us in the long run.

Hopalong.

[benny hill]

When you get to be 58 yrs. old , you will understand why I have to use a scope.

[skeeter]

ok this has been going thru my head for 2 weeks.

how about an AR in 7mm TCU i've got 2 manuels that show 1800 fps with 160 grain bullets out of 14 inch barrels or 150's going 1900. i'll bet with 6 inchs of barrel you could get the 150 to 200 fps you'd need to make major. now you have all the ammo and extras of an AR 15 with major loads and would be easy to shoot.

[Chriss Grube]

I can't believe this is actually still going on. HOLY CHRIST if you want a toy to play with go buy something different, IF YOU WANT TO WIN stick with the .223.

[skeeter]

well of sure i want a new toy to play with!! are we not all of us just big kids playing with high priced toys? and i'm not going to win anything but a club match or 2 so why not.

[skeeter]

you know i've given this some more thought(oww my head hurts). but if we took this line of shoot what the top dogs shoot we'd all be shooting 1911 .45's with no comp. i won't go into all the back ground but somebody stepped out with a comp, 38 supers, dot sights ect. the guns we shoot today aren't like what won the world shoot back in the 70's(unless you are shooting L10). i maybe wrong but it seems to me that everybody shots .223 because thats whats easyest all the guns and parts and cheap ammo it's the way to go but is it the best way? maybe, but with the new rounds out there they're might be something to it. if you could get 30 rounds and just barely make major you might have something.

[Zak Smith]

People will switch to Major when there is a scoring advantage to Major (this is determined by points and target types), and the equipment is such that it can be shot fast enough to be worthwhile compared to 5.56.