Production optics

[bikerburgess]

If you merge existing divisions there is a likelihood that you will annoy a percentage of those that participate in those divisions. An entirely new division is unlikely to drive people away but changing existing divisions or structure might do so.

As I mentioned earlier, 1911/2011 type guns probably account for at least 50% of the guns used in USPSA, I think we need more diversity in the equipment choices and a Prod/Optics division based on the existing Production gun list would allow for that. Although not relevant to USPSA matches, this is most likely the direction that IPSC will go if they vote to try this division in 2017.

I honestly don't think trying to merge production and singles stack would be popular with the membership so that's kind of a non issue with me. What I don't think is because these gun types that in reality are quite competitive with each other curently have separate divisions matters at all. If we are making a new division it should be just that, new.

Keeping it limited to only production guns as you say sounds good till you are looking at a guy with a 9mm 1911 with 10rd magazines and and a slide mounted red dot that he belongs in Open with the hicap race guns because his $600 RIA has a single action trigger, but the guy next to him with a stock II with a worked over action is good to go. If someone can show me where the guns are not competitive I would reconsider, but I'm not sure that data exists.

[bikerburgess]

I don't think anyone here is clamoring for compensators or magwells, let alone frame attached optics.

Agree.Eric

Well not Compensators anyway, I don't like the idea of specifying how the sight is mounted I would rather have a size limit (such as the box with part of one long side removed) and let that be the limit that way we don't prohibit someone from making something better that we all may benefit from in the end. I believe most are afraid if regular C-mores are allowed then that will end up being "THE" sight like it is in Open. a simple size limit enforced with the box as has been suggested would do that. Here is a picture of the production BOX with 1/2 of one long side removed as a example. I would also specify that the gun has to fit in the box with the barrel roughly parallel with the long axis to avoid the Modified type work arounds. PS the opening is also shorter than the C-more so sliding it further back would not make it fit. also the opening could be made smaller if needed.

Please only slide ride optics in my opinioneric

Why?

Wouldn't frame mounted optics, require a Race holster?

Correct, the original intent was current production holsters, slide mounted optics keep with this intent.

If the holster rule already eliminates the currently avaliable frame mounted sight systems why do you need a seperate rule preventing someone from figuring out a way of doing it?

[motosapiens]

I honestly don't think trying to merge production and singles stack would be popular with the membership so that's kind of a non issue with me. What I don't think is because these gun types that in reality are quite competitive with each other curently have separate divisions matters at all. If we are making a new division it should be just that, new.

Keeping it limited to only production guns as you say sounds good till you are looking at a guy with a 9mm 1911 with 10rd magazines and and a slide mounted red dot that he belongs in Open with the hicap race guns because his $600 RIA has a single action trigger, but the guy next to him with a stock II with a worked over action is good to go. If someone can show me where the guns are not competitive I would reconsider, but I'm not sure that data exists.

Mr Hyland made some good points about the *current* divisions, but I think you make an outstanding point about a proposed new provisional division. I think if you want that division to succeed, it makes sense to try to fit as much under it (at least during its provisional status) as you can, but with the understanding that the rules may change slightly so please don't go blow $4000 on a custom purse-optics gun.

I *don't* think it make sense to make as restrictive as production currently is. that just annoys people and prevents them from doing things that I don't think give an undue competitive advantage, like swapping calibers in a glock or mixing/matching top ends. I think the nature of shooters with money is to spend it on fancy guns, but my experience with the CZ tac sport makes me think that you don't have to spend as much money as the rich guys in order to be entirely competitive with them.

I personally know from experience that I don't shoot my 1911 any better than I shoot my cz. In fact, the reloads are slightly slower, but I *enjoy* shooting the 1911 more. The question is, would allowing 1911's mean that everyone would shoot ONLY 1911's in the purse optics division, or would there be the diversity that we currently see in production with equal parts metal and plastic guns. I honestly don't know the answer because I'm not very good at guessing what will be popular (i don't like michael jackson or glocks), but I think at least during a provisional tryout, it's worth considering. I probably wouldn't consider trying the new division if 1911's were not allowed, but I think I might actually give it a try if I can do it with a 1911, just because I enjoy shooting that gun more, even tho I don't think it's a competitive advantage over a plastic gun or $2k custom cz/tanfo.

[BritinUSA]

Briton, how does not allowing the #1 pistol in America help grow the sport? Seems like fuzzy math to me. Mosher's idea is the most inclusive and in my opinion the best new optic division idea I have heard by far. If the idea is to grow the sport and not a "You were the best at being you in Purse Carry Optics today" ribbon, then inclusiveness is what we should aim for.

Also how does not allowing a model of gun (1911), increase diversity?

Our fastest growing division is Production, no 1911's (except the LDA which is DA/SA) so the argument that you need a 1911 to grow a new division is patently false.

As I stated before, I think 1911/2011 already account for at least 50% of the guns being used in competition, how does adding ANOTHER division where 1911/2011 can be used increase diversity ?

Are you the new judge of diversity?

I am offering an opinion, just like everyone else here. If you don't like my opinion, thats fine, I don't understand your need to be insulting.

[motosapiens]

Briton, how does not allowing the #1 pistol in America help grow the sport? Seems like fuzzy math to me. Mosher's idea is the most inclusive and in my opinion the best new optic division idea I have heard by far. If the idea is to grow the sport and not a "You were the best at being you in Purse Carry Optics today" ribbon, then inclusiveness is what we should aim for.

Also how does not allowing a model of gun (1911), increase diversity?

Our fastest growing division is Production, no 1911's (except the LDA which is DA/SA) so the argument that you need a 1911 to grow a new division is patently false.

As I stated before, I think 1911/2011 already account for at least 50% of the guns being used in competition, how does adding ANOTHER division where 1911/2011 can be used increase diversity ?

I don't see why you insist on lumping 1911's in with 2011's. they are totally different concepts. One is a traditional, simple, inexpensive, versatile historically relevant firearm, manfuactured by many dozens of different mfrs in various price points and various countries. the other is a modern race gun available from 2 (or maybe 3?) mfrs, all very expensive.

Why do you fear the 1911? I don't honestly know if allowing 1911s would increase participation in the new division by more than 1 person (me), but it surprised me that you are so against the idea, and I can't really understand why. I think 1911's have much in common with the concept of production, and as bikerburgess pointed out above, they appear to compete with each other on pretty equal footing. Why the fear?

Edited March 26, 2015 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

I don't understand why you think I am afraid of a 1911… ? Where have I stated that ?

My original proposal was a gun from the Production gun list with an optic sight.

The BOD is investigating a provisional division around a slide-mounted red-dot scope.

If you have a proposal that meets that criteria then send it to the BOD for their consideration.

[zhunter]

I was initially dead against the SS 1911's being part of the new "PO" Division, but I'm now thinking it's not a big deal, and I'm all about growing and this being successful. That being said, I do like the idea of all minor scoring, just makes it more simple.

But that leaves out the .45's for sure and possibly the .40's in terms of capacity if there is a box that would eliminate extended magazines. I would be against L-10like fugly extended 10 round magazines.

Furthermore, I'd love a 15 round capacity, but that would mess up any chance for 1911's

Who knows what will happen

One thing is for sure, I'll be shooting Open minor with my CZ Shadow slide mounted Doctor Sight this weekend

Edited March 26, 2015 by zhunter

[bikerburgess]

I don't understand the desire to change the 10rd limit (like in production our fastest growing division and locally to me, in a free state, the one with the most participation) and single stack to some other random number (remember that many 40sw guns hold less than 15rd think Sig, Cz, Beretta) that just messes up the division for a large portion of the shooter in the country (yes its only a few states with 10rd limits, but they are big states population wise)

The arguments don't make sense first it has to be only Production guns because Production is working so well then it needs to be different from Production capacity so it can be more like Open minor

[zhunter]

I see it as 10 round, but would like 15.

10 just makes too much sense, and would keep 9mm 1911's in the game

[RJH]

10 minor 8 major, this is one of the best things about SS. It gives a competitor choices. You can shoot the one you like best or feel would give you an advantage. All other divisions you have to shoot either major or minor to be competitive, it seems like the 8/10 split evens things out nicely without one or the other being dominate.

[Southpaw]

Wow, I used to be interested in the idea of Production Optics, but after the past few pages I've lost all interest. Currently 4 out of the 6 divisions are dominated by 1911s/2011s and you all want to add another division that will be filled with the same guns?

I think before arguing over what the rules for the new division should be, we should first define the purpose for this new division. Are we adding it to get new match sponsors, to bring in new shooters to USPSA who own a gun that they feel doesn't fit well into any of the current divisions, to make a place for people who want to shoot with a dot, but not an Open gun, to provide a lower cost of entry alternative to Open, or just to create a new division for current USPSA shooters to play with? If we define the purpose, I think a lot of the rules will more or less fall into place.

I don't really understand all the arguments for making this new division less restrictive and being sure to include all different sorts of guns so no one feels left out. That pretty much defines Open. So everyone just wants Open 10 Minor? Sounds like it would wind up being almost as popular as L10. (and yes I saw the arguments some made that this new division wouldn't include comps, magwells, and some other little add ons, that seems pretty immaterial to me for creating a whole new division).

And I'm also opposed to combining Production and SS, but not because I think the 1911 is so much better than a Production gun, but that's a conversation for a different thread...

[RJH]

Russell, to answer your purposes and some more: 1911s are made by many companies=sponsers, lower cost than open=1911s, 1911 is most popular gun in USA=new shooters, old guys that can't see=1911s with dots.

If 1911s filled this division, what exactly would be the problem, unless you think the 1911 so that dominate that glocks, etc. cant compete. If that's the case we can get you a participation ribbon.

[bikerburgess]

OK so you have made conclusions about what You want, what was the purpose of the division you made those conclusions about?

My personal thoughts on it is, while Open is a run what you brung division it doesn't provide a place where someone would feel even slightly competitive with a regular gun with just a dot bolted to it. Several manufactures are now producing guns that are ready for mounting compact optics from the factory as these become more common there should be a place where they can compete.

Then when I think about rules I give it my Match Director test, that test is I have a new shooter show up with a gun with whatever mod or feature is being regulates and I think do I want to explain to this guy that his gun has to compete with the full race guns because of X if that makes sense then I'm for it if it really doesn't make sense then I'm aginst it.

For example

Sorry you have to shoot open because your G19 has a stippling on the front of the trigger guard. The milled slide for the RMR is fine but that useless bit of texture is too much. That is a conversation I don't want to have. So I would come down against the current production division stippling rules for a new division.

[trgt]

...

One thing is for sure, I'll be shooting Open minor with my CZ Shadow slide mounted Doctor Sight this weekend

Awesome! I've done the last couple of matches Open Minor with my CZ Shadow slide milled for a Deltapoint and had an absolute ball. Funny thing, because I still have the super thin safeties on this frame, I've just been starting DA first pull with hammer down on loaded chamber like I would production, its not that big a deal. It's a guaranteed conversation starter as most people aren't used to someone shooting Open with DA first pull :-)

[Southpaw]

To clarify my post, those "purposes" for a new division that I listed were just some examples to get the conversation going, I don't necessarily agree with all of them or think those should be guiding intentions for a new division (some I do agree with, others I don't).

What I would like to see is a division that's not dominated by 1911s/2011s and one that's more diverse where you see all sorts of different guns at matches, and also all different guns used by the top GMs who are winning major matches. I just don't think we need another division where the winner of every major match is shooting a 2011 or 1911, we already have divisions for that. And when the general membership of USPSA sees that the winners of this new division are always shooting 1911s or 2011s they'll feel that they need to get one to be competitive.

Also, I don't see how you can include 1911s and not also all other single action guns. Allowing SA guns means very few people are going to choose to shoot DA or striker fired guns against the SA guns. So now a division that started as being Production guns with optics will be shot by all non-Production legal guns...

And I'm not saying this new division should have the same rules as Production such as the stippling areas, etc. A nice part about creating a new division is you have a clean slate so can fix all the flaws that have been found in existing divisions.

And to RJH, most of your arguments sound like reasons for SS. You think there are 1911 manufacturers who don't currently sponsor USPSA's SS division, but will suddenly start sponsoring this new division? I don't know of a single major 1911 manufacturer who's even making a 1911 that comes milled for a mini red dot.

[bikerburgess]

Once again 1911s and 2011s are not the same thing. Outside USPSA most people have never heard of a 2011 some have seen a Para but that's about as far as regular shooters go.

[bikerburgess]

Oh and diversity, I believe the top two places at the production nationals has been the same gun (make and model) for the last several years and the same gun made up the podium at the world shoot

[Gooldylocks]

Oh and diversity, I believe the top two places at the production nationals has been the same gun (make and model) for the last several years and the same gun made up the podium at the world shoot

And that same gun weighs more than lots SA limited guns, and has a trigger (except for one, count it ONE, shot per stage) that is almost as good as said single action guns. So I completely agree with you there, diversity will either exist or not regardless of what the rules allow. And people that complain about how much of a huge difference a DA first shot makes need moar dry fire.

I was pretty against 1911s in this division to start with, but the more we talk about it (especially after seeing those results by percentage, that was very telling data) the more it makes sense to include them. Skinny mag reloads are tough to do fast, so that surely makes up for the one DA shot per stage, in my opinion.

Telling someone that they are SOL and have to shoot open because they sanded the finger grooves off of their G19 with a dot on it also seems dumb to me.

[Gooldylocks]

....

Also, I don't see how you can include 1911s and not also all other single action guns. Allowing SA guns means very few people are going to choose to shoot DA or striker fired guns against the SA guns. So now a division that started as being Production guns with optics will be shot by all non-Production legal guns...

.....

What other single stack SA guns are out there, that people actually own and want to compete with? I can't think of any, except maybe the Sig P220?

[Southpaw]

....

Also, I don't see how you can include 1911s and not also all other single action guns. Allowing SA guns means very few people are going to choose to shoot DA or striker fired guns against the SA guns. So now a division that started as being Production guns with optics will be shot by all non-Production legal guns...

.....

What other single stack SA guns are out there, that people actually own and want to compete with? I can't think of any, except maybe the Sig P220?

So you want this new division to allow double stack DA guns, but only single stack SA guns? I don't see how that makes sense...

And regarding diversity in Production and other various Production rules, I never said Production was perfect. Like I said, with this new division we can start from scratch and try to improve upon rules in other divisions we don't like or think aren't working.

Does everyone even think this new division should have diversity in it? Or do you just want another division dominated by 1911s or 2011s?

[Bkreutz]

Why not restrict the proposed new division to those guns that are made to accept a slide mounted optic? Mounts that fit into the sight dovetail, or had the slides milled wouldn't qualify. Right now IIRC that would limit the division to the M&P Core and the new Glock (don't remember the number). Seems like a pretty skinny choice, but maybe it would spur the other manufacturers to offer an optic ready pistol. I don't have a dog in this hunt, I like shooting open because I'm a parts junky and can't leave anything alone and the older I get, the harder it is to remember rules, so I picked a division that I don't have to put a lot of effort into remembering what I can and can't do to my pistol.

[atbarr]

Use Production rules, add slide mounted optics and make the maximum weight 30 oz. without mag.

[terrydoc]

Hopefully IPSC will do something similar but I doubt they will put a weight limit on it.

Edited March 27, 2015 by terrydoc

[RJH]

It doesn't have to be SS only, I think high powers should be allowed too. I think in a 10 round minor gun, 8 round major gun, the playing field would be very even without a huge advantage to any particular gun. People being scared that a particular gun will rule a division is hilarious. It doesn't make sense to me to force people to buy a 700 dollar plastic gun, with a 150 dollar trigger and tell me its cheaper and more production than a 500 dollar 1911 with a 50 dollar trigger job. And I'm not for SS only. I think revolvers, pro style guns, and even highpowers should be allowed in. Growing the sport = allows more guns in. When you limit the capacity 10/8 everyone is very equal.

[motosapiens]

Also, I don't see how you can include 1911s and not also all other single action guns. Allowing SA guns means very few people are going to choose to shoot DA or striker fired guns against the SA guns.

I don't agree with that at all. I think 1911's will be at a slight disadvantage to currently popular DA guns, but it *might* broaden participation because many people already have them. If it's based on production, it seems pretty clear that cz and tanfo will be the official go-to guns, because shooters are sheep and that's what's winning right now.