zhunter Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think its a great idea. I don't understand why people are so against it.because no one has shown that more than a dozen or so people nationwide would participate. With all do respect, I've gotta ask Participate in what? There is nothing to participate in at this point! Yes a few of us have either wildcatted a match, some of us have shot in Open minor with limited mag capacity, but that is not a test of participation. Let's be fair here. If it is done provisionally, I'm sure it will be very popular. Gun companies do not make multi-million dollar mistakes, at least not a bunch of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Double Edited February 12, 2015 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think its a great idea. I don't understand why people are so against it.because no one has shown that more than a dozen or so people nationwide would participate. With all do respect, I've gotta ask Participate in what? There is nothing to participate in at this point! Yes a few of us have either wildcatted a match, some of us have shot in Open minor with limited mag capacity, but that is not a test of participation. Let's be fair here. I strongly disagree. the guns are legal, but no one wants to shoot them unless they get a special watered-down division where they can 'win'. That's enough for me to oppose the idea right there. We already have too much watering down and too many people wanting to 'win' by hiding in unpopular divisions instead of practicing. I've offered locally to break out the scores separately as well. It's not like anyone is winning a bass boat at our monthly matches, so there's no reason not to take me up on it, except there are only a few people in the country that care about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think its a great idea. I don't understand why people are so against it.because no one has shown that more than a dozen or so people nationwide would participate. With all do respect, I've gotta ask Participate in what? There is nothing to participate in at this point! Yes a few of us have either wildcatted a match, some of us have shot in Open minor with limited mag capacity, but that is not a test of participation. Let's be fair here. I strongly disagree. the guns are legal, but no one wants to shoot them unless they get a special watered-down division where they can 'win'. That's enough for me to oppose the idea right there. We already have too much watering down and too many people wanting to 'win' by hiding in unpopular divisions instead of practicing. I've offered locally to break out the scores separately as well. It's not like anyone is winning a bass boat at our monthly matches, so there's no reason not to take me up on it, except there are only a few people in the country that care about it. Somehow I don't think that interest, or lack thereof in Idaho is representative of interest on a national basis. Obviously there are more than a few people interested since USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA are talking about it. Not saying how many, I have no way of knowing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Somehow I don't think that interest, or lack thereof in Idaho is representative of interest on a national basis. Obviously there are more than a few people interested since USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA are talking about it. Not saying how many, I have no way of knowing that. That's a reasonable point, although idaho is a pretty gun-happy place with a lot of gun ownership and shooter participation. But that's why I asked the optics evangelists how many other folks were shooting at their matches. their answer; hardly any. I think all these organizations are talking about because the same 12 people are making noise everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 According to IDPA HQ there was not enough interest in the division. Based on the results of there survey, and reports of what people are using in NFC at club matches. So..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I guess my question is why would you think it would take off all of a sudden? There have been plenty of options for slide mounted red-dots for a while and people have been milling slides to accept all kinds of things. Why has this not been a huge issue before (at least not that I have seen)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I guess my question is why would you think it would take off all of a sudden? There have been plenty of options for slide mounted red-dots for a while and people have been milling slides to accept all kinds of things. Why has this not been a huge issue before (at least not that I have seen)? Maybe because there is not a place to shoot an optic minor gun and be competitive against similar level shooters! Common sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Somehow I don't think that interest, or lack thereof in Idaho is representative of interest on a national basis. Obviously there are more than a few people interested since USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA are talking about it. Not saying how many, I have no way of knowing that. That's a reasonable point, although idaho is a pretty gun-happy place with a lot of gun ownership and shooter participation. But that's why I asked the optics evangelists how many other folks were shooting at their matches. their answer; hardly any. I think all these organizations are talking about because the same 12 people are making noise everywhere. I might shoot a PO division if it happened, kinda depends on the rules (mag cap, holsters, etc) In the meantime, I shoot USPSA Open with a M&P in 9 minor. Not going to win anything, but that's not the point. Anything on the prize table that I want, I'll just go out and buy, it would be cheaper than an STI Open gun.I'm just having a lot of fun, of course I'm retired and shooting is what I do instead of golf or cards. Edited February 12, 2015 by Bkreutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think its a great idea. I don't understand why people are so against it.because no one has shown that more than a dozen or so people nationwide would participate. With all do respect, I've gotta ask Participate in what? There is nothing to participate in at this point! Yes a few of us have either wildcatted a match, some of us have shot in Open minor with limited mag capacity, but that is not a test of participation. Let's be fair here. I strongly disagree. the guns are legal, but no one wants to shoot them unless they get a special watered-down division where they can 'win'. That's enough for me to oppose the idea right there. We already have too much watering down and too many people wanting to 'win' by hiding in unpopular divisions instead of practicing. I've offered locally to break out the scores separately as well. It's not like anyone is winning a bass boat at our monthly matches, so there's no reason not to take me up on it, except there are only a few people in the country that care about it. Don't worry, Moto is still here to accuse everyone of hiding, just because they want to shoot their gun against comparable guns. Everyone has different reasons that they shoot. It isn't all about "hiding in unpopular divisions instead of practicing", it's about shooting the gun they want to shoot! If you shoot 10 round minor guns against 30 round major guns, its not exactly fair, regardless of what people say. That is the argument here. I don't think anyone is denying that the good shooters would be able to come and trounce normal people, regardless of platform (you see Max's video of his 2 second plate rack, just a few weeks after switching to the production gun?). I honestly do not believe that the reason people support this division is so that they can win a little blue ribbon each month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I guess my question is why would you think it would take off all of a sudden? There have been plenty of options for slide mounted red-dots for a while and people have been milling slides to accept all kinds of things. Why has this not been a huge issue before (at least not that I have seen)? Maybe because there is not a place to shoot an optic minor gun and be competitive against similar level shooters! Common sense There's also no place to shoot a .380 pocket gun and be competitive against similar level shooters. There's not even any place to shoot a compact 9mm and be competitive against similar level shooters. No place to shoot a .22 pistol and be competitive against similar level shooters. There's no place to shoot an LE-Issue .40 or .45 and be competitive against similar level shooters, although they do fit in L10 about as well as optics minor fits in open. There are a LOT more of all 4 of those types of guns being sold than there are production optics type guns, so I don't think that's a valid argument at all. IMHO, the ONLY valid argument is if there are a significant number of people (multiple people at pretty much every match) that want to shoot that division, and there clearly is not that amount of people right now. that might change, and if it does, my position on the subject will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Don't worry, Moto is still here to accuse everyone of hiding, just because they want to shoot their gun against comparable guns. That's not at all what I said. What I'm saying is there aren't enough people that want to shoot that particular type of gun to make it worth watering down the other divisions. Don't be so cranky. Edited February 12, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Don't worry, Moto is still here to accuse everyone of hiding, just because they want to shoot their gun against comparable guns. That's not at all what I said. What I'm saying is there aren't enough people that want to shoot that particular type of gun to make it worth watering down the other divisions. Don't be so cranky. If there aren't many people that want to shoot Production Optics division, why are you worried about "watering down" existing divisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Don't worry, Moto is still here to accuse everyone of hiding, just because they want to shoot their gun against comparable guns. That's not at all what I said. What I'm saying is there aren't enough people that want to shoot that particular type of gun to make it worth watering down the other divisions. Don't be so cranky. If there aren't many people that want to shoot Production Optics division, why are you worried about "watering down" existing divisions? I don't think I said I was worried about it, or that watering down divisions was my primary reason for opposing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 All of these arguments are precisely why it should be tried as a provisional division for a couple of years. Give the division a chance to sink or swim on its own merits, everything is just speculation at this point, we don't know how much interest there will be if there was a recognized division, the only way to find out for sure is to try it. Will trying it for a couple of years destroy USPSA or irrevocably harm our competitions or drive away members ? I don't think so… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Don't worry, Moto is still here to accuse everyone of hiding, just because they want to shoot their gun against comparable guns. That's not at all what I said. What I'm saying is there aren't enough people that want to shoot that particular type of gun to make it worth watering down the other divisions. Don't be so cranky. If there aren't many people that want to shoot Production Optics division, why are you worried about "watering down" existing divisions? I don't think I said I was worried about it, or that watering down divisions was my primary reason for opposing it.Multiple times in this thread and others you have commented on the "watering down" and people "hiding so they can win" in divisions like L10 or SS. So would you prefer a heads up low cap division? Anything goes, so long as you have 10 rounds or less? Basically only have L10, and nothing else? Would you still feel your skills are being accurately displayed shooting your minor CZ against a 40 cal Edge with a fat magwell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Multiple times in this thread and others you have commented on the "watering down" and people "hiding so they can win" in divisions like L10 or SS. So would you prefer a heads up low cap division? Anything goes, so long as you have 10 rounds or less? Basically only have L10, and nothing else?Would you still feel your skills are being accurately displayed shooting your minor CZ against a 40 cal Edge with a fat magwell? Doesn't really matter what I would prefer. I shoot what I shoot in the division it fits in, and I practice so I can get better. If I want a heads-up lowcap division, I can put on my own match, or break out all the low-cap results in our local matches separately and post them on the local shooting website. I don't need to get everyone else to go along with my idea. I don't think we need a separate division for every possible handgun configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Sarge. Bring out the Horse beatings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Sarge. Bring out the Horse beatings. Don't think it's a "dead horse" yet, since it's on the BOD March agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I guess my question is why would you think it would take off all of a sudden? There have been plenty of options for slide mounted red-dots for a while and people have been milling slides to accept all kinds of things. Why has this not been a huge issue before (at least not that I have seen)? Maybe because there is not a place to shoot an optic minor gun and be competitive against similar level shooters! Common sense To me, this argument essentially tells me that people are putting more emphasis in the equipment than practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I guess my question is why would you think it would take off all of a sudden? There have been plenty of options for slide mounted red-dots for a while and people have been milling slides to accept all kinds of things. Why has this not been a huge issue before (at least not that I have seen)? Maybe because there is not a place to shoot an optic minor gun and be competitive against similar level shooters! Common sense To me, this argument essentially tells me that people are putting more emphasis in the equipment than practice. I guess my question is why would you think it would take off all of a sudden? There have been plenty of options for slide mounted red-dots for a while and people have been milling slides to accept all kinds of things. Why has this not been a huge issue before (at least not that I have seen)? Maybe because there is not a place to shoot an optic minor gun and be competitive against similar level shooters! Common sense To me, this argument essentially tells me that people are putting more emphasis in the equipment than practice. You can practice, both live and dry fire until your hands bleed, but it will not make up for the differences between 10 and 30 round mags or major and minor scoring. Sorry, not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The argument that Production Optics can be competitive with Open is like saying that Limited (Major) is competitive with Production (Minor) because both divisions use iron sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If PO happened and it was 15 rounds, I'd prob ditch production and shoot PO. If 10 rounds, I'd keep shooting production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 We have a Production shooter in my state that beats most if not all limited and open shooters. Sounds like you guys need to practice more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Briton, check out the scores from the world shoot, compare limited winner to production winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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