bikerburgess Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 So your answer is yes you would feel out gunned? I ask because I personally would not and if production needs a optics division the same argument can be made for the other divisions as well. I think it would be better to make a division where more guns would be legal to play on relatively level ground. I think it would do both a better job of attracting new shooters that have optic carry guns (as mentioned earlier many of these are not production legal) and to extend the shooting of those with old eyes that don't want to go full open (SS is popular with several of the more experienced shooters in my area) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'm 1 step closer, my Delta Point-2 mount arrived at CZ Custom yesterday What're you having it mounted on and how? I talked to Eric there and he wasn't sure how to mount it a month ago. Leupold has a dovetail mount cut for the CZ, it's going on a SP-01 Shadow Matter of fact, Leupold has mounting "plates" for most manufacturers/models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Britin as you are shooting open with a gun that would be legal in the proposed division I will direct my question to you. Would you feel out gunned if you were completing against someone with a single stack gun with a dot in either major or minor? I've not shot it yet, but Major and Minor are not a level playing field. In the lower classes, think C and D possibly as the extra shots will be necessary, but never in the higher classes. A Class and up the Major will kill the Minor on point differential because there are not a lot of makeup shots or misses on steel, but the Charlie's will win for Major the vast majority of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 as "proof" that major & minor can not compete on a level playing field just look at the entrants of any level II or III match in the US for the top 20 competitors and you will see that they all shoot major. If there was no difference do you honestly think they would bother with everything associated with major when they could just shoot 125 PF and win? If that were true they would also just shoot their normal loads for Steel Challenge vice developing sub minor loads ... It simply makes no sense This over rides all the other differences combined .... and here's more "proof". I brought Mike Seeklander out to our club to teach his class & shoot a match with us. Shooting his limited gun he finished 3rd overall beating every open shooter except a 6 division master shooter and an A shooter (by less than 20 points). He was able to do that because of his far superior skill level but he needed major PF to do it; comps & dots didn't make the difference but PF sure did ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 comps & dots didn't make the difference but PF sure did ... If that's the case, then I don't see why we can't let any type of gun play in this new division and just score everyone minor. Levels the playing field. We could just call it open 10 minor. Rules would be easier. It sounds like all the division really needs is 10 round mags to force more reloads, and score it minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 because the whole point of this new division, as we've said many times, it to keep all the Production rules unchanged an simply allow an optic on the gun- nothing more. If you want comps, magwells, major, race holsters, infinite changes, etc, etc or any PART of those, there are divisions already for you to pick from ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Does a 25 oz glock 17 with dot have much of a chance against a 50oz race gun? and with the number of reloads, a magwell would make a big difference. A frame mounted dot has way less movement than a slide mount. Basically everyone would just start shooting their STI steelmasters instead of their trubor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Britin as you are shooting open with a gun that would be legal in the proposed division I will direct my question to you. Would you feel out gunned if you were completing against someone with a single stack gun with a dot in either major or minor? I think the answer here is yes. The only reason we are talking about adding this new division is people feel out gunned in open. And allowing more guns with less rules would only make it to much like open. Plus if it's to much like open, then people will say just shoot open. It has to be different, so we need production rules. I think I got that right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Does a 25 oz glock 17 with dot have much of a chance against a 50oz race gun? Define chance. And people keep saying not "competitive". What does that mean to you? I've beat open shooters and their 50 oz race guns with my revolver shooting minor. Do I have a chance? It depends how good they are not how much money they spent, or how many rounds there gun holds. Does that mean someone is going to win open nat's with a wheel gun? No of course not. But you don't need the top of the line gear to beat most guys at a club match. If your goal is to win a Area or something, maybe you need to look into better gear, otherwise I'd say a 25 oz glock will not hold you back as much as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 In my mind, "competitive" means against people of the same skill level. You are clearly a much better shooter than the people you are beating if you are beating open shooters with a revo. I beat M's at local matches and I'm only a B. The difference? I'm shooting limited and they are shooting production or L10. They are much better shooters but my equipment allows me to beat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 If that's the case, then I don't see why we can't let any type of gun play in this new division and just score everyone minor. Levels the playing field. We could just call it open 10 minor. Rules would be easier. It sounds like all the division really needs is 10 round mags to force more reloads, and score it minor. I know this discussion started out as production optics and everything based on production. I'm still for that; however, I think this option deserves some serious consideration. Think about it for a few minutes. I like this idea.... - Production style rules as far as holster and mags. - 10 rounds maximum in magazine after start of course of fire. - Slide mounted optic/laser for semi-automatic pistols - Revolvers mount optic on the frame. - Minor power factor and scoring. - NO comp/Magnaporting. - Other than that anything goes. Magwell, okay, new trigger, okay. - Hell call it Open Minor. Come one come all. Shoot what you have as long as you comply with the above. Honestly I'm doubtful production optic would get the nod from the BoD but something like the above may just. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) If equipment doesn't matter why do we have different divisions that don't compete against each other? This whole idea of an overall winner at a mtwch has never made any sense to me. The is no official overall winner. It's just division winners. Even once I become a Production GM I will have a very tough time beating a good open shooter. Now give us the same guns, with the same rules in the same division and things will be different ... Edited August 21, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Anything goes = higher costs One of the objectives of Prod/Optics is a low cost division for scopes. Allowing extensive modification will increase costs, we need another low cost division to help grow participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Anything goes = higher costs One of the objectives of Prod/Optics is a low cost division for scopes. Allowing extensive modification will increase costs, we need another low cost division to help grow participation. So the intent isn't to bring in new shooters who may already have a gun with a dot on the slide, the intent is for current production shooters to spend less money getting set up with a dot. See that's the part I was missing, all this talk of new shooters and growing the sport was throwing me off. The people out there who already have this type of gun didn't build it with PO in mind. PO doesn't exist how could they? And they don't shoot USPSA so how would they know anyway? What are the chances their gun will be legal based on the final rules in PO? Or will they get bumped to open anyway? This is the point biker has been making all along. But all that doesn't matter, because the real goal here is cheaper open. We should just be up front about it. Edited August 21, 2014 by Racinready300ex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 In my mind, "competitive" means against people of the same skill level. You are clearly a much better shooter than the people you are beating if you are beating open shooters with a revo. I beat M's at local matches and I'm only a B. The difference? I'm shooting limited and they are shooting production or L10. They are much better shooters but my equipment allows me to beat them. I have not seen alot of stages where limited is that much of an advantage. I shoot production and I am typically very close to the limited shooters of the same approximate skill level (within a few percent). If equipment doesn't matter why do we have different divisions that don't compete against each other? This whole idea of an overall winner at a mtwch has never made any sense to me. The is no official overall winner. It's just division winners. Even once I become a Production GM I will have a very tough time beating a good open shooter. Now give us the same guns, with the same rules in the same division and things will be different ... The whole idea of a winner in a division doesn't make any sense either. It's just a matter of luck regarding who shows up. I just focus on getting better and improving my own skills. Finishing ahead of other people is a side-effect of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 But all that doesn't matter, because the real goal here is cheaper open. We should just be up front about it. Wrong. Why don't you read the proposal? It has NOTHING to do with Open. I am trying to grow participation in the sport, this type of setup is going to be more prevalent, by getting out ahead of that growth with a clearly defined division USPSA has an opportunity to help grow that market and increase membership. I get that there are a few on this forum that are vehemently opposed to any new division and will try their best to prevent this from happening. The proposal in front of the BOD is Production Optics, not SS Optics or Open Minor or some variation of a theme. If you oppose Production Optics then tell your AD. If you want something different then write a proposal and submit it for approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 And don't forget about retaining existing shooters:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 And don't forget about retaining existing shooters:) Absolutely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Why is this such a hard concept for people to understand ... PRODUCTION optics ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haraise Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Why not just have optics as a time modifier to any division? Knock a certain percentage off the score would be really easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 And don't forget about retaining existing shooters:)Absolutely!As long as that shooter was not shooting anything other than production when their eyes went Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 And don't forget about retaining existing shooters:)Absolutely!As long as that shooter was not shooting anything other than production when their eyes went What difference does that make??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 If that's the case, then I don't see why we can't let any type of gun play in this new division and just score everyone minor. Levels the playing field. We could just call it open 10 minor. Rules would be easier. It sounds like all the division really needs is 10 round mags to force more reloads, and score it minor. I like a lot of that idea, as long as we control the guns and the mods to keep it from being minor open. Miox the rules of Prod and SS, Minor caliber and a slide mounted optic not to exceed a certain size. External mods to be limited like SS and Prod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 And don't forget about retaining existing shooters:)Absolutely!As long as that shooter was not shooting anything other than production when their eyes went What difference does that make???Just like with new shooters if your existing shooter shoots a gun that is not production division legal making the new optics division will still make them need to do more than pop a dot on their gun. They will need to buy a new one or try to modify their existing one to meet production rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 But all that doesn't matter, because the real goal here is cheaper open. We should just be up front about it. Wrong. Why don't you read the proposal? It has NOTHING to do with Open. I am trying to grow participation in the sport, this type of setup is going to be more prevalent, by getting out ahead of that growth with a clearly defined division USPSA has an opportunity to help grow that market and increase membership. I get that there are a few on this forum that are vehemently opposed to any new division and will try their best to prevent this from happening. The proposal in front of the BOD is Production Optics, not SS Optics or Open Minor or some variation of a theme. If you oppose Production Optics then tell your AD. If you want something different then write a proposal and submit it for approval. I could also live with it being just prod optics. Like this whole thing started as... I'm very wishy washy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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