Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 So you want a new division that is narrowly defined to only allow a small range of optics with no room for growth in technology? So a glock 17 with a red dot is good and bad depending on how it is mounted? Yep, that's what they're saying -- because there's already a division for blasters that look like your avatar -- and it's name starts with O...... But they're saying more than that: 10 rounds per magazine after the buzzer Minor scoring -- this matters because it should reduce the battering the scope might get, compared to what an open division slide mounted red dot might be exposed to... No race holsters Holsters and pouches behind the hip Production Division Rules on modifications with one minor exception: The ability to add a slide mounted red dot. (I suggested also exempting lasers and white lights -- as those are also likely to be found on defensive carry guns) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I personally have seen 2 production optics guns now (at the weeknight steel challenge match I run). If I saw 3 or 4, I might consider scoring that division separately, but if 6 people complain about it and none of them show up to shoot those guns, I will just ignore them. This also might be something where interest is different in different areas. If you run a steel match where only two of 20 show up with optics, I can see your point of view. Same deal if your USPSA matches are mostly limited class and few production, it wouldn't look like there's a market - since you get no sense of demand for either optic or production - clearly not worth the effort in your area. In our area, weekday fun steel is over 10 of 25 with optics (any both centerfire and rimfire), and USPSA matches are hitting 80-100 folks a match, where of that there are 25-30 production shooters a match. And our night match had over 40 shooters where all of them had weapons mounted lights for what were largely production rights, and a few with light/laser combo. So my arguing 'for' probably based off what I see is a lot higher potential for this, than what you see from your area. And that OK, one isn't better than the other, we each have to understand that our experience isn't the same as others. Good points. for us it's like 2 guys out of 100-ish, and they have each brought production optics type guns once each. So that's why I have such skepticism so far. The numbers you are getting are much more supportive of the idea, and imho that is what you should be talking about and publicizing. Maybe I missed it earlier, but I've mostly seen "i think it would be like totally popular and stuff" in lots of posts, and I haven't seen a whole lot of "we have 10 guys showing up every week with guns that would fit this division." Thanks for sharing the details of your experience. It helps me understand the issue better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 As best I can tell the arguments presented in favor of the division have been lo cost and inclusion for people who don't want to buy "real" open guns. AND a LOT of folks that for whatever reason choose not to reload. Open division is reloaders-only land. Production Optics friendly to folks buying factory 9mm, similar to how a lot of production shooters are using factory or bought ammo - not reloading. You can shoot open with factory 9mm making minor. Or you could shoot open with factory 40 making major. Add your slide ride, and a 170mm mag and you won't be at that much of a disadvantage. I'm sure you can still make GM with a open glock 40, and beat most shooters at a match if you're good with it. You could -- but by focusing on the dot, you're only seeing part of the picture..... I'm coming around on this...... Quick -- someone talk me out of this, before Z and I agree on something, and the forum crashes...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I don't think we need Production optics for a few reasons. I guess you can keep the current production rules in place and that's fine. But what about fitting the box? What about weighing the gun? Do we come up with another box for a division that some if not many guys have admitted they have not even seen a gun like this being used yet? So, HQ in it's infinite wisdom says it does not need to fit the box. Then guys start putting extended mag base pads on unless there is going to be a new approved weight list with every possible gun/optic combo. Just does not seem realistic to do all of this for potentially so few shooters. Then what about hit factors? Certainly optics should make shooting classifiers easier than a standard production gun. What about match recognition? It will be like revolvers where nobody shoots them in a major unless there are enough signed up to be recognized. Growing the sport? I don't think PO will have that much of an impact. Just one well placed TV spot on the right channel at the right time would do much more for growing the sport. Why are we so worried about shooters who can't afford to shoot certain divisions or who can't reload. I knew coming into this game there was no way I was going to be able to shoot on a regular basis without investing heavily in reloading gear. I also knew it is not a game for those on a tight budget or very limited funds. I started in production and thought I could never afford anything else but I scrimped and saved for two years to have an Open gun built. I don't make a lot of money and I often have to make a choice as to what I am going to spend money on in a given month. So I KNOW a shooter can shoot open if he really ,really wants to. Extended base pads are irrelevant as long as we're only loading ten rounds, and not allowing magwells..... HHFs? Simple: Use open or a percentage of open until you have enough data points to set individual, division specific HHFs. Recalculate the scores if the data base can handle that when the division achieves full, no longer provisional status, after 2-3 years. If the database can't handle that, just reset the HHFs and let classifier activity take care of the promotions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm coming around on this...... Quick -- someone talk me out of this, before Z and I agree on something, and the forum crashes...... You mean to say I woke up (BST) to this? . Oh no, save me Seems like there is a lot more understanding of the idea beginning to take place. Let me reiterate: No magwells No extended basepads No external modifications, optics are mounted on the slide either via a factory slide adaptor like a C.O.R.E system which are currently produced OEM by several manufacturers, or by a rear sight dovetail mount Holster rules will be current Production rules, no race holsters Stippling/grip tape rules will be the same as production No slide lightening Minor scoring only No comps Now, I'll be honest and open minded. Honestly I don't know much about lasers. Being open minded, I'm willing to listen to pros and cons. But it's gotta fit in a current Prod legal holster. I see this as a simple Division addition to bring new shooters and have others return idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Regarding lasers - if they can be mounted in such a way that the pistol is holstered in a production legal holster then they should be permitted, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 So you want a new division that is narrowly defined to only allow a small range of optics with no room for growth in technology? So a glock 17 with a red dot is good and bad depending on how it is mounted? Yep, that's what they're saying -- because there's already a division for blasters that look like your avatar -- and it's name starts with O......But they're saying more than that: 10 rounds per magazine after the buzzer Minor scoring -- this matters because it should reduce the battering the scope might get, compared to what an open division slide mounted red dot might be exposed to... No race holsters Holsters and pouches behind the hip Production Division Rules on modifications with one minor exception: The ability to add a slide mounted red dot. (I suggested also exempting lasers and white lights -- as those are also likely to be found on defensive carry guns) I get that there is a division for guns like my avatar that's what I built that for. What I am saying is writing a rule set that allows some things to be frame mounted and others not makes it harder to enforce the rules and reduces the possibility of something better being developed. I belive there was a thread on here a while back where a member made a frame mounted dot that was more integrated into the frame and had very little bulk. If someone were to follow that path and make a better mouse trap a narrow definition In the rules would prevent it's use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm coming around on this...... Quick -- someone talk me out of this, before Z and I agree on something, and the forum crashes...... You mean to say I woke up (BST) to this? . Oh no, save me Seems like there is a lot more understanding of the idea beginning to take place. Let me reiterate: No magwells No extended basepads No external modifications, optics are mounted on the slide either via a factory slide adaptor like a C.O.R.E system which are currently produced OEM by several manufacturers, or by a rear sight dovetail mount Holster rules will be current Production rules, no race holsters Stippling/grip tape rules will be the same as production No slide lightening Minor scoring only No comps Now, I'll be honest and open minded. Honestly I don't know much about lasers. Being open minded, I'm willing to listen to pros and cons. But it's gotta fit in a current Prod legal holster. I see this as a simple Division addition to bring new shooters and have others return idea So only factory length base pads? You realize that is a restriction that is not in production division. You also did not say it would be legal to mill the sight into the slide so those guns are out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) I'd be happy to have factory basepads as a box will be difficult with the optic, but maybe just have a box with the right half of the top cut out (gun set with barrel facing left) and allow current basepads? Certainly a point for discussion. As for milling the slide for a sight, that is opening a huge black hole of rules infringements. The dovetail mounts take care of the slides that aren't OEM ready for mounting a sight. Edited July 18, 2014 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Regarding lasers - if they can be mounted in such a way that the pistol is holstered in a production legal holster then they should be permitted, IMO. That's the driver for me -- for both lights and lasers...... I might come play in such a division with an iron sighted blaster with laser and light -- just because that's my house configuration.... And I might try this red dot thing you speak of..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'd be happy to have factory basepads as a box will be difficult with the optic, but maybe just have a box with the right half of the top cut out and allow current basepads? Certainly a point for discussion. As for milling the slide for a sight, that is opening a huge black hole of rules infringements. The dovetail mounts take care of the slides that aren't OEM ready for mounting a sight. Why? We allow for slide milling now to allow for lo-mount Bo-Mar installation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I personally have seen 2 production optics guns now (at the weeknight steel challenge match I run). If I saw 3 or 4, I might consider scoring that division separately, but if 6 people complain about it and none of them show up to shoot those guns, I will just ignore them. This also might be something where interest is different in different areas. If you run a steel match where only two of 20 show up with optics, I can see your point of view. Same deal if your USPSA matches are mostly limited class and few production, it wouldn't look like there's a market - since you get no sense of demand for either optic or production - clearly not worth the effort in your area. In our area, weekday fun steel is over 10 of 25 with optics (any both centerfire and rimfire), and USPSA matches are hitting 80-100 folks a match, where of that there are 25-30 production shooters a match. And our night match had over 40 shooters where all of them had weapons mounted lights for what were largely production rigs (with tac rails), and a few with light/laser combo. So my arguing 'for' probably based off what I see is a lot higher potential for this, than what you see from your area. And that OK, one isn't better than the other, we each have to understand that our experience isn't the same as others. But fun matches and night matches etc don't mean much as far as creating a new division in USPSA. You mention you get 80+ shooters at real matches with 25+Production shooters. How many of those guys had optics? Thats the relevant question. I too can get 80 shooters at my monthly match with most being production shooters sometimes. Nobody has shown up with an optic or even asked anything about it. There may be one or two showing up that I miss but they are apparently shooting Open with no qualms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I think milling the slide to accept a dot is ok, as it is in the current Production rules. As I mentioned earlier, the only issues with the existing rules for this new division are the box and the weight issue (though I'm not sure how the weight issue is handled currently considering that the slide can be machined to accept a different rear sight). Do they weigh Production guns at chromo ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Milling the slide will be problematic. Somebody will figure out a mount that will require a lot more milling than just a dovetail. Make it out of aluminum or plastic. The weight reduction will allow for a tungsten guide rod. Which takes me back to the weight issue. How will the guns be weighed? There are just too many variables as to which sights will be on which gun. Must be at least 50 possible combinations easily. HHF gets partially explained by saying it will be ran as open. So isn't that about like running one of these guns in Open? Minor scoring and all? Extended base pads would be easier for some to manipulate and they could certainly add weight to the gun unless something is figured out regarding weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Do they weigh Production guns at chromo ?? Absolutely. Mine has been weighed many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 So if the guns are being weighed now, what happens if a gun has been milled to accept a different rear sight ? Won't the weight be different than that listed for that gun ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I just checked the Appendix: Yes, 2 ounces with empty magazine inserted over weight listed on approved pistol list So if the slide was milled to accommodate a red dot then the weight would be lower (but offset slightly by the weight of the scope). The same would be true if the red dot was mounted in the existing dovetail, but the weight would be slightly higher. So I think we would need to determine a variance that the weight must be within the specified weight for the gun +/- nn ounces Determining the value for nn would require some testing to figure out the most amount of metal that could be removed and still have a working gun, versus the weight of the scopes + any mounting hardware that uses the existing dovetail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 And that's why milling for sights should not be allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 And that's why milling for sights should not be allowed But it is now for Production; Either way there is going to be a weight differential between the factory published weight and the weight with a red-dot regardless of how that scope is mounted. We just need to figure out a value for the weight variation, I don't think its a show-stopper. Another thing to bear in mind is that as the division catches on then manufacturers may offer pre-milled slides (like FNS) as factory options so we need a method of accommodating both types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 So if the guns are being weighed now, what happens if a gun has been milled to accept a different rear sight ? Won't the weight be different than that listed for that gun ? Each gun has a listed weight on the approved list. They can weigh less no problem. But they can not weigh more than 2oz. over the listed weight. What shooters want is a heavier gun in production. Not a lighter gun. That's why max weight is restricted. So if you allow radical milling to fit a particular optic base, you could add that weight back in the nose of the gun with something like a heavier guide rod. Which would be an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 And that's why milling for sights should not be allowed But it is now for Production; Either way there is going to be a weight differential between the factory published weight and the weight with a red-dot regardless of how that scope is mounted. We just need to figure out a value for the weight variation, I don't think its a show-stopper. Another thing to bear in mind is that as the division catches on then manufacturers may offer pre-milled slides (like FNS) as factory options so we need a method of accommodating both types. And that's why milling for sights should not be allowed Another thing to bear in mind is that as the division catches on then manufacturers may offer pre-milled slides (like FNS) as factory options so we need a method of accommodating both types. This would also create a new approved gun list? A certain number of guns would have to be built before they could be added to the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Why do we need a box if the gun is on the list? Why do weight it if it's on the list? Now that JA is gone, maybe Prod Div rules can be brought back to normal (what ever that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Why do we need a box if the gun is on the list? Why do weight it if it's on the list? Now that JA is gone, maybe Prod Div rules can be brought back to normal (what ever that is). It would simplify things if a more general set of requirements could accommodate this (this class, and eventually production class) vs the explicit list, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Why do we need a box if the gun is on the list? To make sure mag base pads are not too big, for one thing. Why do weight it if it's on the list? Because dozens of modifications are allowed in Production. Many of the modifications can add weight which makes the guns easier to control. Now that JA is gone, maybe Prod Div rules can be brought back to normal (what ever that is). He is not gone yet. But I agree it's time for a change there. And I personally think Production guns should not be allowed to be altered in any way from their factory configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I personally have seen 2 production optics guns now (at the weeknight steel challenge match I run). If I saw 3 or 4, I might consider scoring that division separately, but if 6 people complain about it and none of them show up to shoot those guns, I will just ignore them. This also might be something where interest is different in different areas. If you run a steel match where only two of 20 show up with optics, I can see your point of view. Same deal if your USPSA matches are mostly limited class and few production, it wouldn't look like there's a market - since you get no sense of demand for either optic or production - clearly not worth the effort in your area. In our area, weekday fun steel is over 10 of 25 with optics (any both centerfire and rimfire), and USPSA matches are hitting 80-100 folks a match, where of that there are 25-30 production shooters a match. And our night match had over 40 shooters where all of them had weapons mounted lights for what were largely production rigs (with tac rails), and a few with light/laser combo. So my arguing 'for' probably based off what I see is a lot higher potential for this, than what you see from your area. And that OK, one isn't better than the other, we each have to understand that our experience isn't the same as others. Don't for get the one guy at the night match with night vision! Cannot wait for the Sept. match. Okay, back to arguing about Production Optics ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now