jester121 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I didn't want to pollute the other thread(s) on the topic of multiple procedurals, so started my own. Suppose I'm assessed 6 or 8 procedurals on a per-shot basis, when I feel it should be on the per-occurrence basis. Assume Level II or higher match. I discuss it with the RO and we can't agree. Or, really, any other rules violation that one could appeal.... My question is -- do I sign the score sheet? Does that act end my right to appeal to the RM or file an arbitration? I'm not an argumentative type, and am not the type to make waves, but I'm also a big believer in playing by the rules. I want to do things the right way, so what's the right way? If it isn't in the rule book, how to people normally proceed? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 "I disagree, and I'd like to appeal." (It's all in the rule book, right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 FWIW, Kyle nailed it. On top of that, if the stage staff is in agreement, they should be eager to call the RM, so they can get back to running competitors..... ...and part of the RM job, beyond making the decision, is to have the discussion with the competitor.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 "I disagree, and I'd like to appeal." And then don't sign the score sheet, right? 9.7.3 Should a competitor refuse to sign or initial a score sheet, for any reason, the matter must be referred to the Range Master. If the Range Master is satisfied that the course of fire has been conducted and scored correctly the unsigned score sheet will be submitted as normal for inclusion in the match scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 And then don't sign the score sheet, right? Right. once you sign the score sheet... 9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike l m Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I agree with Flexmoney. Do not sign score sheet and ask to appeal the call(desision). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Our CRO at nationals was very pro-active in this respect. If I made a call and the shooter disagreed, I asked the CRO to look at it. If the CRO made the call and the shooter still disagreed, the CRO asked if the shooter would like to appeal, and if so we pulled the target if necessary and went back to running shooters. In the very few disputes we had, I was very impressed with the professionalism and courtesy of all parties involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 It's worth noting that not only is protesting and requesting the RM proper, but you aren't going to hurt anyone's feelings by doing so. We're all competitors, and no RO/CRO worth his salt is going to take offense at someone making a legitimate attempt to improve his score. If that sort of thing bothered you, you wouldn't volunteer to stand around for 2-3 days scoring targets and running shooters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 It's worth noting that not only is protesting and requesting the RM proper, but you aren't going to hurt anyone's feelings by doing so. We're all competitors, and no RO/CRO worth his salt is going to take offense at someone making a legitimate attempt to improve his score. If that sort of thing bothered you, you wouldn't volunteer to stand around for 2-3 days scoring targets and running shooters! That was my focus in asking the question about the "when" and the "how" -- in case I ever have to do it, I don't want to do it the wrong way just because I'm new, but I also don't want to fail to speak up if I should. Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I always am polite, smile, and when I disagree with the CRO, ask them to call the RM. I see MANY competitors from D to GM get exceptionally huffy with the RO-CRO of stages, and it simply is unnecessary. You (in a general sense) are only making things worse. The rules empower the competitors to have the RM have the final decision, and the RO/CRO of a stage does not have the right to deny you that final ruling. Something else to add: Range staff work their butts off in a myriad of climate conditions over multiple days. If one of them gets a bit huffy with you, absolutely do not take it personally. Just follow the first sentence of this post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 And just to throw this out there as well. I fully agree with Micah. There is no need for anybody to get upset. RO PERSPECTIVE- If I make a call as an RO/CRO I do not take it personally if you disagree. Don't be sarcastic and say something offensive. I do not in any way take offense to you wanting to run it up the chain to the RM. That is your right and it shows you know the rules and how to make an appeal. If the RM comes to me and says he is overturning a call I made that does not bother me either. The only contest is in the shooting of the match. I am not trying to "win" against shooters when I RO. I never look at it as "me against them". I am just trying to give each shooter a fair shake and make sure the stage is run safely and consistently. SHOOTER PERSPECTIVE- If you make a call that I don't agree with I am going to take it up the chain. I expect the same courtesy that I afford shooters when I RO. Don't get pissed when I ask for the CRO or RM. I am not attacking you personally by doing so I am just trying to make sure I exhaust all of my options before accepting a decision. I'm not saying you are a shitty RO. I am just looking out for me. Being a dick about anything is not going to help my cause. Remember that RO's are shooters too. Making a call on a fellow shooter is never a fun or easy thing to do. I HATE issuing a DQ. Any self respecting RO hates it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 For the RO and the shooter being polite is a plus. I try and RO 2 or 3 LII matches a year to give back a little to the sport. Nothing worse than having a shooter be a PITA over a call. Just tell me you disagree, and why, I will either change my mind or call the RM. Once the RM is involved I stay out of it other than to answer questions from the RM. When I screw up a call I learn from it. As a shooter there is nothing worse than having an RO make what I think is a bad call then be a PITA about it. Last I looked its a game and all but a few of us are going to get paid the same no matter how we shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Also, speak up as soon as you don't agree. Don't wait. If you don't appeal a target, it will be assumed that you agree with the call, and it will get reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Also, speak up as soon as you don't agree. Don't wait. If you don't appeal a target, it will be assumed that you agree with the call, and it will get reset. Along the lines of "don't wait". At an Area match I saw the RO give a fairly new shooter the dreaded 8 procedurals for having his foot halfway over the fault line.( targets were 15 yards away and straight ahead ) Definitely not a "significant advantage". It was brought to his attention and he replied "No big deal I've trashed several stages anyway". So he let it slide. What happens here, a real bad call goes unchallenged and the RO does not learn by his mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 At an Area match I saw the RO give a fairly new shooter the dreaded 8 procedurals for having his foot halfway over the fault line.( targets were 15 yards away and straight ahead ) Definitely not a "significant advantage". This is exactly the experience I had, 6 procedurals to start a stage because I didn't step into the shooting area at the buzzer -- except no one mentioned anything to me (or the RO) about it being a bad call. I didn't know the rule so it's 100% my fault, but the fact that the RO told me (nicely, not like he was proud or happy about it) that he'd had about one person per squad get the 6 procedurals all day long. We shot the stage after lunch, so that's a ton of points and a ton of people who don't know the rule or don't speak up. I wonder if that's the most mis-applied rule in the book right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Just to keep this thread alive... let's say you want to file a 3rd party appeal because you saw somebody got else got excessive penalties. The shooter in question already signed the scoresheet. Is ability to file a 3rd party appeal closed off at that point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Just to keep this thread alive... let's say you want to file a 3rd party appeal because you saw somebody got else got excessive penalties. The shooter in question already signed the scoresheet. Is ability to file a 3rd party appeal closed off at that point? Which rules would apply? Look them up and share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 CHAPTER 11: Arbitration & Interpretation of Rules 11.7 Third Party Appeals 11.7.1 Appeals may also be submitted by other persons on a “third party appeal” basis. In such cases, all provisions of this Chapter will otherwise remain in force. 9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2. Personally, I think that a 3rd party appeal can still overturn the excessive penalties even if the score sheet has been signed due to 11.7.1 granting the ability to appeal, and the section I highlighted in 9.7.4. Unfortunately, the part the confuses me is the part that I underlined. I don't see a way to remove penalties, unless removing penalties is construed an correcting arithmetical error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 A problem I can envision with the third party appeal is what about all of the other shooters who got dinged with the same penalties? Do they therefor toss the stage? Go through and try to correct all of the other score sheets? Order everyone who got dinged for excess procedurals to reshoot the stage? Alter the one sheet and let the others just eat the penalties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 A problem I can envision with the third party appeal is what about all of the other shooters who got dinged with the same penalties? Do they therefor toss the stage? Go through and try to correct all of the other score sheets? Order everyone who got dinged for excess procedurals to reshoot the stage? Alter the one sheet and let the others just eat the penalties? \Please review 11.6.2. Any decision is not retroactive and can only apply in the future. Sucks sometimes, but it is very hard to go back and try to make corrections after the fact. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 So what would be the proper call for the future? If the shooter arbitrates and wins do you therefor educate the RO's and still score it the same way for the rest of the match so that ALL scoring stays consistent? Or, do you change the penalties for the future squads and thus affect the equability of the stage scoring between future squads and past squads? 11.1.8 Match Director’s Duty – Upon receiving the appeal from the Range Master, the Match Director must convene the Arbitration Committee in a place of privacy as soon as possible. 11.6.2 Implement Decision – It will be the responsibility of the Range Master to implement the Committee’s decision. The Range Master will advise the appropriate match personnel who will post the decision in a place available to all competitors. The decision is not retroactive and will not affect any incidents prior to the decision. Would say change the future scoring but how do we reconcile that with the overall match scoring and ultimately determining the winner? 30,40, 50+ penalty points will effect the outcome especially at a level III or IV match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) Got less than a year in as an RO...one of my fault, and I know it, is no shoots. I have had shooters correct me when I'm wrong. I don't take it personal. I want the help. I can only get better as I learn. And hopefully not piss any one off in the process. Edited November 5, 2012 by whitedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now