Calling shots

[jarcher]

Hi All...

I have been working on being able to watch my sites lift, see everything I can and call my shots. I have been told I should know right where the bullet went based upon where the sites were the instant the gun fired.

What I am wondering is, how precisely should I be able to call them? If I am shooting an ordinary target like an NRA slow fire 20 yard target at 75 feet (silly range rule) the sites pretty much cover the black dot.

So, should I be able to tell pretty much where in the black it hit, or just that it hit in the black? Or just that it was near the upper left of the target?

At this point I can usually tell a good shot from a bad (near center vs flyer) but I'm wondering just how well you guys who are good at this can do?

Thanks...

[Skywalker]

It all depends on what you need to see/know.

On an IPSC classic/metric target I need to know if the shot was an A, C, D or Mike. At least that's what I should know (not that I'm so good at telling that I can always do it).

For this kind of targets I don't see the need to distinguish between an upper left or lower right A-hit on a classic "turtle", they all score the same.

But then, deciding if to accept a C/D hit or make it up is a different story.

It has more to do with your planning of the stage and HF figuring before actually shooting.

What I worked out best for me is to decide I'd shoot at least 95% of maximum available points in that stage, thus I plan to accept a certain number of C hits (no Ds, they'll kill your scores) and no more.

E.G.: on a 16 rounds 80 pts stage, I will try and shoot it scoring a maximum of 3/4 Cs, with the time it takes to shoot it that way.

Again, I'm not always able to carry on what I plan...

[Dalmas]

I'm fairly new to the sport too and have contemplated the same question and still search the answer but I have a Die Hard excersice that will tell you pretty much what you need. If It doesn't you are not seeing what you need.

I call it "The Die Hard Prezidente"

Set-up: 3 HALF targets (cut them in half) in a normal prezidente configuration.

Distance: 23m (25 yards)

Procedure: Surrender start, facing up-range. Turn shot 2 per target reload and 2 again.

Some friends call it an overkill hard stage but I like it. One have to be in control of ones shooting not to rush..

My best (std-minor) is 10.02 seconds 58p.

Enjoy,

Dalmas

[spook]

You should be able to know where the shot went very precisely. Not just, "this-was-an-OK-shot-it's-probably-an-A-or-a-C"-precisely. At all dstances and especially with difficult shots, you should know you've made a good enough shot before you can move on.

A good drill for this is to shoot groups at different locations on the target. Most people shoot groups at the middle of the A zone. Try shooting some groups at the edge of the C zone, the edge of the D zone or any other spot on the target. I found that doing this will speed up your shot calling ability tremendously (at least for me, YMMV)

[Garfield]

Mats,

I fail to see what your drill has to do with calling shots ?

[Flexmoney]

jarcher,

Don't confuse call the shot with accuracy. They are related, but not the same.

Your accuracy can be influenced by a number of things (load, trigger, gun fit, your "wobble zone", etc.)

Reading the sights (calling the shot) is just reading the sights. You should be focused on knowing the relationship that the sights had with each other...and with the target (when the bullet leaves the barrel).

With work and experience, you will be able to determine what that means in relation to where the bullet will impact the target.

[MoNsTeR]

you will be able to determine what that means in relation to where the bullet will impact the target.

Yes, but what does that ("where") mean?

hit/miss?

good/bad?

scoring zone?

area of scoring zone?

how many millimeters from the center?

I understand what you mean about practicing reading the sights etc., but what resolution should we learn at?

[benos]

Your progression will mirror your ability to refine your call.

It helps me to think of calling in two realms. The first is the actual read - knowing exactly where the bullet went based on your sight reading, and the next is the result of that reading combined with your intent - did the shot hit your intended target?

The reason it helps me to understand calling like that is because calling itself has nothing to do with where you wanted the bullet to go. You'll learn the essence of calling quicker if you understand that. If you do, you'll find that applying the result of your call happens without effort. When you know, at the instant the shot broke, that it missed the target, the make up comes automatically. And if you know, at the instant the shot broke, that it hit the target, you will move decisively to the next target.

be

[vincent]

I would think for USPSA/IPSC/IDPA shooting where time is an important factor there is little benefit in calling a shot more precisely than the scoring zone. As long as you know if it was an A, C, on the steel plate, etc. you would have all the information needed for that shot as it relates to your score.

[benos]

Very true.

But once you figure it out, it doesn't take any longer to see everything than it does to see almost everything. From experience, I can say for sure that having the ability to precisely read the sites is never a disadvantage. It just keeps getting better and better...

be

[Flexmoney]

I would think for USPSA/IPSC/IDPA shooting where time is an important factor there is little benefit in calling a shot more precisely than the scoring zone.

As Brain said...I don't think that time is much of a factor. When you see enough to know...you will know with all the precision that your experience has prepared you for. (if that makes any sense)

Calling the shot and pausing/holding the gun on target are seperate things...as are visual patience and follow through.

[Flexmoney]

you will be able to determine what that means in relation to where the bullet will impact the target.

Yes, but what does that ("where") mean?

hit/miss?

good/bad?

scoring zone?

area of scoring zone?

how many millimeters from the center?

I understand what you mean about practicing reading the sights etc., but what resolution should we learn at?

To come at this from a different angle (though I strongly suggest to get what Brian is saying!)...

If you could take away shooter error (which is tough...it's too easy to jerk the trigger "right now" when we see the sights where we think they ougt to be)...we come down to two things:

1. The accuracy potential of the gun and ammo.

2. The accuracy potential of the shooter.

I may be over-simplifying things, but if you think of the shooter's accuracy in terms of a wobble zone (we'll call it a circular wobble zone), then you can get an idea of where the bullet should go.

If the shooter's wobble (hold) makes a circle around center of bullseye of 4 inches, that means...if the gun was completely perfect...that we could expect to see a 4 inch group shot by the shooter. The shooter ought to be able to tell at what position the gun was in (at any point along their wobble) when the bullet left the barrel. If the gun is perfect, then the shooter could know exactly where the bullet would impact.

Of course, the gun won't be perfect. If the gun is capable of 2 inch mechanical accuracy...add that to the 4 inch wobble. You can expect a group of 6 inches.

But, the shooter should still be able to read where they were within their wobble zone. So, they should know (within the accuracy potiential of the gun) where the bullet went.

Then...we can introduce shooter error (trigger control, perfect sight alingment, flinch, blinking, lack of attention, etc.).

So...there are lots of factors on "where the bullet went". But, not so many on reading the sights. (If you are paying attetion, when the bullet leaves the barrel, then you should see if you disturbed the sight alignment when you pulled the trigger...and you should be about to see where the sigts were with respect to the target.)

[Ron Ankeny]

But, the shooter should still be able to read where they were within their wobble zone. So, they should know (within the accuracy potiential of the gun) where the bullet went.

That's good stuff Kyle. When I was shooting a bunch of rimfire gallery I spent a lot of time shooting "fly specks". At 50 feet the really good shooters (prone for me) could call the shot within a bullet diameter give or take. When I shot PPC I could call shots pretty good back to fifty yards. I always knew the position of the shot (1-12 O'clock) and I could almost always get the scoring ring right.

Then along came IPSC and the introduction of the timer. Even though I have the ability to call a shot with a decent degree of precision, I don't do that at speed. I see what I need to see to make the shot, break the shot and read the relationship of the sights to one another and the target. If the shot is acceptable I move on. I don't concern myself with calling the exact location of the shot even though I am subconsiously aware of the position. Should I reconsider my approach?

[diehli]

Ron, why could you possibly want to alter your approach?!?!?! You're doing great with what you've been doing. Everybody gets to where they are by doing what they need to do to get there. Kyle's way, your way, my way, they're all different. His works for him, yours works for you, and, when I find mine, it'll have to work for me and not necessarily anyone else.

What Kyle describes is great for guys like me that are just beginning to see things. When I get to the point where I am seeing what I need to see, it may be completely different than what he's seeing (though that's pretty unlikely giving the similarity of what we're trying to do, though my description of it might differ).

[Flexmoney]

Ron,

I'm glad you chimed in there. I was mostly breaking down into theory. I needed a little feedback from you and Brian (and the others that know a thing or two about accuracy).

I doubt that you need to spend any time on this. You have covered those bases already. I would think you already have this stuff built into your foundation.

(I hope I didn't come off as preaching a "way". I was just trying to provide another perspective.)

[Dalmas]

Mats,

I fail to see what your drill has to do with calling shots ?

Arvid,

Try it, It worked for me, I have during the summer had a problem with rushing and missing the last shot before a new action (reload, movement). Most of the time I wasn't sure if I called or not

This stage (its a virginia count) forces me to slow down relax and really call my shots before I do something new, so in a way it's for me a call the shot drill.

I expect the Europeans to be full of partial targets and I need to find the A-zone and really hit all targets, I only shot Minor and need the points, partial targets are a huge favor for the major guys.

[jarcher]

Thanks everyone! This is great information!

It helps me to think of calling in two realms. The first is the actual read - knowing exactly where the bullet went based on your sight reading, and the next is the result of that reading combined with your intent - did the shot hit your intended target?

I'm really glad Brian said that, thank you Brian! I had figured I should be more concerned with knowing where the shot went than making sure it went exactly where I wanted it. I had assumed the former was a needed skill to master the latter and I’m still working on that first realm. I read in your (Brian’s) book that the ability to shoot accurately is the basic foundation for the rest of the skills, so this is what I am working on, and trying to see everything that my pistol does.

If I understand correctly, I should (regardless of whether it is strictly necessary in match shooting) be able to learn to call my shots within the accuracy of my pistol. My pistol happens to be a Sig P239 originally .40 and I have been using a BarSto 9mm conversion barrel. It is equipped with Sig Light night sites. I have never measured it but it probably shoots 2 inch groups at 75 feet. Certainly I have an arc of movement while firing, but I should be able to know where in that arc the shot broke and so know where the shot went within about 2 inches. Is this correct?

I don't understand the bit about calling shots to within the diameter of a bullet. Do pistols and ammunition that accurate and consistent really exist? This statement makes me wonder if I am following this.

Thanks again to everyone. This is a great help!

Jim

[Flexmoney]

I don't understand the bit about calling shots to within the diameter of a bullet. Do pistols and ammunition that accurate and consistent really exist? This statement makes me wonder if I am following this.

Don't even worry about that...that is a whole different world.

I have never measured it but it probably shoots 2 inch groups at 75 feet.

Likely close to that.

Certainly I have an arc of movement while firing...

Everyone does.

...but I should be able to know where in that arc the shot broke and so know where the shot went within about 2 inches. Is this correct?

That is correct (assuming 2in. is the mechanical accuracy of the gun). But, it's not easy. In addition to your wobble zone, you have things like trigger pull, flinch, and sight alignment to figure in. You should still see all this, but you have to learn to watch for it all.

The more you can shoot while being aware the easier it will get.

[EricW]

I guess I'm clueless when it comes to shot calling. My shots fall into two categories: (*) went where I needed it to go and (j) went somewhere else. Granted, I do see the sights and I know *where* the shot went, but I honestly don't analyze it past that. Just take a new shot that does what you need and get on with life.

Must be why I still suck...

[jarcher]

But, it's not easy. In addition to your wobble zone, you have things like trigger pull, flinch, and sight alignment to figure in. You should still see all this, but you have to learn to watch for it all.

Boy, it sure is not easy! I have all those problems, plus I still blink sometimes! But I’m glad to hear it’s not easy; makes me feel better that learning is taking so long.

Must be why I still suck...

LOL! Well, I suck too if it makes you feel better! Sometimes I take a shot, check it through the binoculars and say “yeah, that’s about where I thought it went” but most of the time I say “How the hell did it land there?!

and sometimes even “How did I miss?!”

Thanks again everyone! I plan to keep at it until I can call the shots accurately. I appreciate the help!

Jim

[Tomppa]

This isn't directly to this topic, but:

Last night I shot 6 shot groups from ~17 yards and tried to see what my front sight is doing while the gun recoils. Normally while gun recoils, front sight rises to up and right?? but I still shoot all A's. Something wrong here? Should I see the sight lifting straight up? When I saw sight doing something else than up and right (but not straight up) it was C or even D. When shooting from the bench, sight goes straight up, not to up and right. Should I try to correct something?

Thanks, great topic and forum.

Tomppa

[Ron Ankeny]

Kyle:

The Internet is such a poor way to communicate. The question I am posing to you and Brian if he wanders through is this. I call my shots, but all I am doing is confirming the gun was where I wanted it to be when it goes bang. If the shot is off I can tell if I am on the paper and whether or not I at least slopped it into the C zone.

By "reconsidering my approach" I am wondering if following though a little longer and calling the shots a little better might add some value to the notion of confidence and trust thereby allowing me to get on with shooting the next target a little faster. Just thinking out loud here and maybe I am just babbling.

jarcher:

Sorry to muddy the water with the rim fire experiences. I was talking rifle not handguns.

[carinab]

Plaxco taught a drill in his classes where you took five shots at an ipsc target at 25 yards. On a piece of paper with an ipsc target on it, you would mark with a pen where you thought the hits went. You'd then go down range and see if you called and remembered your hits correctly comparing the target to the paper.

A variation was the above but with a par time just under your comfort zone by .2 of a second. The idea being that you could learn to make the calls under pressure and learn what is an acceptable picture for a given shot....Sort of an exercise for BE's point; you'll know where the bullet went and if you hit what you intended (i.e. part of the A zone if that's what you wanted).

[Dead Buff]

... at 25 yards. On a piece of paper with an ipsc target on it, you would mark with a pen where you thought the hits went. You'd then go down range and see if you called and remembered your hits correctly comparing the target to the paper.

Some of the coolest advice I have received in a long time...

[Flexmoney]

Ron,

I think that can help quite a bit. The speed seems to be as good or better...and it allows you to shoot more relaxed.

I think that works at the highest level of competition too. I remember watching Todd Jarrett in the shoot-offs last year at the Factory Gun Nationals. It looked like he was taking a walk thru the park...as he spanked shooter after shooter.