Rifle Needed for 3Gun - BEGINNER

[smarcus3]

BTW, I am already putting parts together for a 2nd build and the barrel has not even arrived yet for the 1st build.

This one will be an "economy build" except for the barrel and BCG

I'm sure that's a hell of a firearm, but a little too rich for my first.

[zhunter]

BTW, I am already putting parts together for a 2nd build and the barrel has not even arrived yet for the 1st build.

This one will be an "economy build" except for the barrel and BCG

I'm sure that's a hell of a firearm, but a little too rich for my first.

Like I said, the 2nd one will be an economy build

[smarcus3]

What's the price point for that one?

[twodownzero]

I really think a lot of people pay way too much for a 3 gun rifle. There are complete ARs out there for $600. You can replace a lot of parts for the difference in cost.

The distinction between a blem rifle from CMMG and a high end JP is far less than you'd think for the difference in price. Even a bone stock RRA has a 1 MOA guarantee. Most ARs will shoot 1 MOA with good ammo anyway. What are you really getting for all that money?

I have built ARs from scratch, and it's a great option because you get to pick every single part.

I'd much rather have a cheap rifle and a nice optic than the other way around, too.

If you're on a budget, don't hesitate to get yourself a cheaper rifle and get out there and shoot. Time behind the gun is way more valuable than any piece of equipment.

[HRider]

You should be able to find a 20" barrel AR for less than $1K. The general public is fascinated with 16" carbines, so 20" guns are usually cheaper. If you buy a flattop 20" with iron sights, you can run it like it is. Later, if you decide to put an optic on it, you can. I would be looking for a rifle length gas system gun instead of a carbine length gas system. The rifle length system will shoot softer.

Hurley

Any specific one you can think of?

I was thinking along the lines of DPMS, Bushmaster or Rock River A3 guns. A couple of years ago, they were going for $800 or so. I just did a quick search of Gunbroker and didn't find many 20" guns. If you look around, whatch gunbroker, frequently check classifieds here, USPSA and some other gun boards, you should be able to come up with a rifle of be able to put one together for $1k (without optics). If you are planning to run otics, you can get a 16" mid length gas gun, for iron sights, I would hold out for a 20" gun for the sight radius.

Hurley

[smarcus3]

I really think a lot of people pay way too much for a 3 gun rifle. There are complete ARs out there for $600. You can replace a lot of parts for the difference in cost.

The distinction between a blem rifle from CMMG and a high end JP is far less than you'd think for the difference in price. Even a bone stock RRA has a 1 MOA guarantee. Most ARs will shoot 1 MOA with good ammo anyway. What are you really getting for all that money?

I have built ARs from scratch, and it's a great option because you get to pick every single part.

I'd much rather have a cheap rifle and a nice optic than the other way around, too.

If you're on a budget, don't hesitate to get yourself a cheaper rifle and get out there and shoot. Time behind the gun is way more valuable than any piece of equipment.

Thanks for the advice. Send you a PM to see if you have a parts list.

[twodownzero]

I really think a lot of people pay way too much for a 3 gun rifle. There are complete ARs out there for $600. You can replace a lot of parts for the difference in cost.

The distinction between a blem rifle from CMMG and a high end JP is far less than you'd think for the difference in price. Even a bone stock RRA has a 1 MOA guarantee. Most ARs will shoot 1 MOA with good ammo anyway. What are you really getting for all that money?

I have built ARs from scratch, and it's a great option because you get to pick every single part.

I'd much rather have a cheap rifle and a nice optic than the other way around, too.

If you're on a budget, don't hesitate to get yourself a cheaper rifle and get out there and shoot. Time behind the gun is way more valuable than any piece of equipment.

Thanks for the advice. Send you a PM to see if you have a parts list.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but if the budget is the primary concern, I would suggest buying, rather than building, a rifle. You can take advantage of sales and economies of scale and even if you desire to change things later, you can probably sell the leftover parts for a price that will reduce the overall cost of your rifle when complete. There are a ton of 16" midlength gas system rifles out there for $6-700 if you find the right deal.

I don't shoot a lot of 3-gun, but when I do, I have not seen a lot of 200+ yard shots that some of the big matches have, and so I don't really understand the trend toward 18-20" rifles for 3 gun. If I was building a rifle specifically for games, I would consider what you're likely to encounter at your matches and buy accordingly. My rifle is a 14.5" with a midlength gas system and a lightweight barrel. I think for the hoser type stuff that I often see at local matches, something like that is ideal. If I wanted to go with a longer barrel, I would stick with the lightest barrel possible and the longest gas system that will fit for the barrel length--which means rifle gas for 18". I would avoid a carbine length gas system entirely.

I do not have a dedicated rifle for shooting games, but if I did, and the range wasn't long, I might even stay with 16" or even shorter if a pinned brake would get you to 16", and go with a midlength gas. But I'm also a tiny guy, so anything to reduce weight really makes an AR more comfortable for me. The trend is clearly to 18-20" rifles with rifle gas systems, though, so keep in mind that opinions differ. Mine does make minor with 55 grain bullets and 25 grains of WC-844, though, so I have no reason to go with any longer of a barrel than I'm running now.

If you were to buy a $600 carbine and decide 3 years from now that you wanted something very specific, you could build it then, and I don't think you'd have any problems at all getting $500 for a well used carbine.

My current rifle is a frankenrifle built from an RRA that I bought as a complete gun in 2005. I sold the upper because it was too heavy. I kept the RRA lower with its two stage NM trigger and bought a CMMG upper with a 1 in 7, chrome lined 16" barrel. I had someone cut down the barrel so that the flash hider made it 16" and solder it on. He also turned down the barrel to reduce the weight and re-parkerized the barrel. It has regular midlength handguards and a Burris MTAC.

I have also built ARs completely from scratch. It's not hard and later on, if you decide you want something specific, that really is the way to go.

I think that if I were to build one for this game, I'd keep in mind that while the barrel is the heart and soul of any rifle, the difference between a $200 barrel and a $600 barrel isn't as much as the $$$ would suggest.

I think just about everything imaginable has been done with the AR platform. I have done my fair share of experimenting, but if I got to shoot my rifles more, I bet I'd have a bunch of carbines that looked surprisingly similar. The AR is so modular that it's hard not to wonder what a particular configuration would be like.

Edited September 9, 2012 by twodownzero

[Sleepswithdogs]

I think for a beginner I'd be looking for something about 16" or shorter with the longest gas system it could take and chrome lined. Put a good comp on it, Titan or Rolling Thunder, and a good trigger, JP, AR Gold, Giselle, likely the best 2 parts on the gun. Might even be tempted to start the first 1 or 2 matches with a bad muzzle device so when you switch to a Titan or RT they will go, "WOW WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!" Keep the rifle light and simple and add to it as the shooter gains experience. Don't think floating handguard would even be on the top of the list, but rather as good of an optic as you can afford. Nothing wrong with going iron sights either. Gives a beginning shooter a good foundation in the gun, and keeps it simple. Your going to need a couple of good mags, 20-30-30-48, belt and mag holder.

As the shooter improves, improve the gun. I don't think it a good foundation to buy a great gun for a beginning shooter. Think they could be embarrassed that they have a great gun and don't shoot it as well as they could. More fun and good foundation to add parts and improve the gun as time goes on. Give the shooter the feeling, "wow, I'm hanging in there and they have those fancy guns." Then with experience comes improved parts they grow into, understand what they do, and appreciate.

What ever gun you get, I think stripping it down as far as you can go, give it a real good cleaning then a liberal coat of oil of your choice, this will make everyone more comfortable with it in competition.

Tar

Edited September 9, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs

[smarcus3]

Thanks for both great indepth answers. Again I really appreciate the input. I like the idea of building to it over time. I would love to build one (as I'm an engineer) but really cant know what I want until I try it out. I think for a second one, building makes complete sense since you know what you like and what you don't.

I was just looking at the Oracle, which adds a dust cover and forward assist.

[Sleepswithdogs]

For a comp rifle neither dust cover nor forward assist is important, IMO. Just add weight with no, or little function. JP light carrier doesn't even have a provision for forward assist, so it serves no function at all when you use that carrier and you will likely end up wanting a light carrier, adjustable gas, etc. Besides, the rifle looks so clean sans forward assist and dust cover, so if you have one in mind without, that is the direction I'd go.

Your going to have fun building a rifle. It's a thrill to be able to research and pick out every single part, but as has been said, it does take time to know what is important for the way you shoot.

Tar

[smarcus3]

Okay. Thanks for the tips. If a dust cover / forward assist aren't needed Ill get the regular sportical.

I will def build the second one. I'll upgrade / experiment with the first to figure out what I like / don't like.

Edited September 9, 2012 by smarcus3

[smarcus3]

Any recommendations on optics/mounts. I was thinking of the this Burris Tac30. Is this good for targets both close and up to 200 yards?

Edited September 10, 2012 by smarcus3

[Romans 13 4]

Go with the Burris and PEPR. That's what I run for now as a rookie. Easy to hit targets further than 200. Like anything, upgrade when you want or the wallet will let you. My next upgrade for optics is either a Leupold 3gun scope or the Swaro z6. But until MY wallet gets fat, I'll use the Burris and be happy.

[Sleepswithdogs]

I am not the one to ask about optics as I have a very different outlook than most and different from what is winning. I'm willing to sleep in the bed I make but unwilling to take any down with me. I'd look to people like PE Kelly, Jesse T, Alaskap, people who have vast experience and who are winning.

As for mounts, the PERP mount is good, so is JP's mount, (anything JP seems to be a cut above) LeRue, but Warne makes a great mount and provides a lot of certificates on the prize tables. You can often get a great deal on a Warne mount by checking the classifieds below and picking up a cert from some one who got it off the prize table. Mater of fact, you can get a LOT of great deals in Brian's classifieds.

Tar

Edited September 10, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs

[OPENB]

I just picked up a Shotgun News, and saw an add from Double Star Corp. for their 3 gun ready rifle. I will search for it and report back. The pic appeared to show an 18" barrel and a Samson Evolution handguard, but anything else, I couldn't tell.

It is the Double Star 3GR. MSRP is $1600. 18" 1-8 twist barrel, Cedar Ent. 2 stage trigger (never heard of them), Ergo grip, ACE Skeleton stock, Evolution handguard, and what appeared to be an F2 conp.

I could build it cheaper. Anyone that can build an AR could. I built my brother an upper yesterday with a DPMS Mk 12 barrel which was on sale at Midway for $161, a complete flat top upper I got him for Christmas, M&A parts full chrome bolt carrier group, Gunfighter charging handle, and Nordic free float tube. He got a Nordic clamp on gas block and gas tube for $45. I will never buy a factory rifle again when they are so easy to build with just the basic AR tools, and a vice. These are not 1911's. That being said, a local shop has 16" S&W flat top M4's with a Mapul rear sight for $650. I can't build one that cheap. I would reiterate what others have said, and don't get a carbine gas system. Get the rifle length, you will not regret it, and they cost the same up front.

Edited September 10, 2012 by OPENB

[smarcus3]

I just picked up a Shotgun News, and saw an add from Double Star Corp. for their 3 gun ready rifle. I will search for it and report back. The pic appeared to show an 18" barrel and a Samson Evolution handguard, but anything else, I couldn't tell.

Okay. Let me know what you find.

I looked through the classifieds, but didn't find any good deals on the scope or mount.

I would like to say that I am amazed with how active the community is. The thread has been answered by so many different users in under a day. Thanks and glad to be part of it.

[EkuJustice]

You can build one under 1k if you buy right. If you want an optic, the Millett DMS 1x4 or the weave 1x3 are fine optics for the money and the burris PEPR mount will have you set up with glass for 300 or less.

[Sleepswithdogs]

To get good deals in the classifieds you have to scan them continually. The good stuff goes very, very quickly, as in... a couple of hours. Also check'em after the big shoots when people have picked up things at the prize tables.

The 3gun community seems a very good one. Things here on the board are quite civilized, especially if you have been over to some of the other forums and seen how the mall ninja's operate. People here are willing to share experience that has taken years to acquire, and even at shoots help out more than just about any other sport I have been involved with.

Tar

Edited September 10, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs

[smarcus3]

Ok. Ill try to keep checking it though even the sold one for the Tac30 for example were only slightly cheaper than buying a new one.

Edited September 10, 2012 by smarcus3

[Sleepswithdogs]

Ya, keep checking. I have seen Warne mount certificates go for $50-75-100 and they are near 190 retail.

Tar

[smarcus3]

That would be hella nice. It would be sweet to get a discount on the scope too.

[carbon9]

If you are on a budget, even a self imposed budget, building your own rifle first time is probably not a realistic option. Why put out more $$$ for the proper tools? Just buy a rifle. Keep in mind, without those tools upgrading certain components on your base rifle may be difficult or near impossible. This means more time at the gunsmith and more $$$. To put it in perspective the amount of ammo you shoot through this rifle will greatly exceed the cost of the rifle itself in the first year. The rifle is the cheap part of shooting so splurge a little. Besides do you really want to wonder if the problems you are having are you or the rifle? I would rather know it is just my shooting abilities that need improvement not my budget rifle holding me back

3 Gun rifles have evolved into their own type of rifle due to the needs dictated by the game, different shooting ranges and which division you may be shooting. If your local range has no shots over 100yds then you could build a short and light gun to game your local range. If you are gonna travel you need a "jack of all trades/distances" hence the 18" compromise between velocity and maneuverability. IMHO buy at least a base model purpose built for 3 Gun so you have a realistic baseline to evolve from. I personally think a 15" free float handguard is very important with all the odd positions and props we shoot from but the barrel and trigger are really the heart of a good AR.

As stated before, if you are going to shoot irons get at least a 20" barrel.

If you are going to shoot with an optic a 16-18" barrel.

No Carbine Length Gas Systems.

I agree with P. Kelley 100% on the scope mount. If you are going to run an optic (even an inexpensive one) get the best mount you can. Skip the PEPR and at least get a Warne, JP, LaRue, etc.

The most important thing is to buy something instead of forum-ing and reading to the point of indecision and confusion. Buy it, shoot it, evolve and improve. Don't desk jockey it to death.

My opinion is simply an opinion, YMMV.

Best of luck

[smarcus3]

I'm having trouble finding any AR thats in stock that have a longer barrel than 16" other than a 3G1 at nelsontactical for $1200. Any other options out there?

I was going to just get the sportical, but after beating a dead horse to death, I don't know what I want. Its a case of too many choices.

[zhunter]

What's the price point for that one?

Problem is the barrel, I am going to get a good (not great barrel) and it is $275 and a pretty good BCG. I am shooting (pun intended) for a $900 rifle excluding optics. I am going to experiment on a stock trigger and a do it yourself trigger job just for the fun of it. (I've already bought an extra trigger in case i mess one up)

Any recommendations on optics/mounts. I was thinking of the this Burris Tac30. Is this good for targets both close and up to 200 yards?

I bought a PERP mount new and found an MTAC here on the classifieds that was like new for the 1st one. It was a very good deal that included a Switchview lever.

[Sleepswithdogs]

That would be hella nice. It would be sweet to get a discount on the scope too.

3gun people tend to like the newest and best scopes, and I'd be willing to bet many a good deal on their old scopes could be had if you keep a good watch in the classified's.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs