Open Shotgun

[shovel_doctor]

I have never shot a 3 gun match. I have watched and want to get into it. I already have the pistol and rifle covered. I got the ok from the wife to get a new shotgun. I have been trying to use the search button (as I am sure Im not the first to ask this question) with no luck. What gun to buy? I have been looking at the mossberg 930 jm pro and a remington 1100. Whats the best bang for the buck? Whats the most popular? Any and all help is appreciatied. Thanks.

[sdhunterman]

Of those two, the JMPro is the direction I would go. The 1100 seems like it is tough to keep running consistently.

[fritzthemoose]

I have never shot a 3 gun match. I have watched and want to get into it. I already have the pistol and rifle covered. I got the ok from the wife to get a new shotgun. I have been trying to use the search button (as I am sure Im not the first to ask this question) with no luck. What gun to buy? I have been looking at the mossberg 930 jm pro and a remington 1100. Whats the best bang for the buck? Whats the most popular? Any and all help is appreciatied. Thanks.

decide if you want to go tube fed or magazine fed first. in my opinion only magazine fed makes sense but thats me. from what u wrote the decision is going tube fed right?

between those two i would pick the 930 but i am not a specialist with tubes.

[shovel_doctor]

I havent put much thought into a saiga. What mods are done to them for open? Anyone have a good site i can go to to check them out?

[El Guapo]

Don't go saiga unless you are prepared to put a lot of time and effort into getting working 100 percent. It involves a lot of work

[fritzthemoose]

I havent put much thought into a saiga. What mods are done to them for open? Anyone have a good site i can go to to check them out?

i have a saiga that runs flawlessly without much efford. i am building an akdal now for me as the akdal does have soem adavantages over the saiga version that is allowed in austria. however, this is a different version than the one allowed in the us.

anyway, just dont believe too much of what you here as this is a tube fed dominated forum if you go over the the saiga forum you will here the complete opposite.

what u basically have to do is change the r&l magazine system to a normal well style system. convert the trigger and if necessarey, and most of the time it is necessary, enlarge the gas ports. thats it

but also think about the akdal there is less to do.

[michael1778]

I don't think this is a "tube fed dominated forum" by any stretch.

Now back to the topic.

If you want a shotgun that is purely for Open division competition, then you would be well served to consider either a Saiga or an Akdal platform. From my limited experience watching them in competition, you will need to be attentive to how it is configured/gunsmithed.

I shoot Open, but elected to go with a Remington Versa Max 26" as my base platform. Only reason I did that was to have ONE GUN be what I use for most competition and recreational shooting; not only for Open 3-gun. I have an XRAIL on my VM 26" that I will use for the first time in competition this Sunday. Previously I had a long Nordic Components tube extension that allowed me to hold 13 in the tube, total. Now I hold 22 rounds in the XRAIL.

But to convert back to a 'simple' trap or sporting clays gun, I simply remove the XRAIL, replace the factory spring and follower, and factory tube cap.....done.

Personally, if I went the magazine-fed shotgun route, I'd look at an Akdal modified by Jim and Firebird Precision; based on reputation and my limited phone time talking to him and his staff. Saigas are widely used with a longer history.

[fritzthemoose]

I don't think this is a "tube fed dominated forum" by any stretch.

Now back to the topic.

If you want a shotgun that is purely for Open division competition, then you would be well served to consider either a Saiga or an Akdal platform. From my limited experience watching them in competition, you will need to be attentive to how it is configured/gunsmithed.

I shoot Open, but elected to go with a Remington Versa Max 26" as my base platform. Only reason I did that was to have ONE GUN be what I use for most competition and recreational shooting; not only for Open 3-gun. I have an XRAIL on my VM 26" that I will use for the first time in competition this Sunday. Previously I had a long Nordic Components tube extension that allowed me to hold 13 in the tube, total. Now I hold 22 rounds in the XRAIL.

But to convert back to a 'simple' trap or sporting clays gun, I simply remove the XRAIL, replace the factory spring and follower, and factory tube cap.....done.

Personally, if I went the magazine-fed shotgun route, I'd look at an Akdal modified by Jim and Firebird Precision; based on reputation and my limited phone time talking to him and his staff. Saigas are widely used with a longer history.

Although I am going the Akdal route becaue we are not to convert here in Austria and therefore the Akdal has several big advantages I am not sure which one I would take in the US. The Akdal is for sure easier and cheaper to mod but if its better in the end I dont know. I guess its a tossup

[RWF]

NOT the 1100, if you want a remington versa max, on a open only shotgun, mag feed (saiga) would be nice but from what i have seen it does take $$$$. to get one race ready. next to the 1100 they both can be problematic. but that is just my opinion based on what i have seen myself first hand. i have shot a $3,500 saiga that had a 12 or 14 barrel that was a ton fun, but anyway you get the idea.

the cheapest saiga i found after tuning was $2400 but that was with no porting and just 1 mag, so i passed.

[fritzthemoose]

NOT the 1100, if you want a remington versa max, on a open only shotgun, mag feed (saiga) would be nice but from what i have seen it does take $$$$. to get one race ready. next to the 1100 they both can be problematic. but that is just my opinion based on what i have seen myself first hand. i have shot a $3,500 saiga that had a 12 or 14 barrel that was a ton fun, but anyway you get the idea.

the cheapest saiga i found after tuning was $2400 but that was with no porting and just 1 mag, so i passed.

that would be even much more expensive than here and normaly we are much more expensive than anything in the US

[RWF]

yes, they are high dollar here, if i did get one (Saiga) it would have to go to R & R racing. because it would be the set-up i would want. but that's over $2K not including me going out and buying the gun.

i can honestly say,i have only seen 1 run 100% and the owner claim he did the work and did not spend or put big money into it.

[fritzthemoose]

yes, they are high dollar here, if i did get one (Saiga) it would have to go to R & R racing. because it would be the set-up i would want. but that's over $2K not including me going out and buying the gun.

i can honestly say,i have only seen 1 run 100% and the owner claim he did the work and did not spend or put big money into it.

the base gun is around 800 euro here sometimes you see it a little bid cheaper sometime a little bid more expensive. this would be the same version like in the US the one with the hunting stock.

We are not allowed to convert so that safes kind of money there but also has its disadvantages and its the reason why i am building a Akdal now.

I did put a tapco pistol grip stock and a tapco forearm on it. its the only stock with pistol grip for a non converted one so there was not much choice. i think it was around 100 dollar.

an original side mount from russia which was around 20 dollar

i did have an old aimpoint sitting around which i use

had a picattiny rail sitting around which i did put under the forearm and an afg i got from china for like 5 bucks around lol. i have several of those on several guns and they work great.

did buy a 5 position plug and an aftermarket pug. not sure how much it was but around 100 dollar i guess.

most expensive thing was a poly choke compensator combo based on the maxrounds break. there the choke is integrated in the comp. this was 350 euro.

did put an original ihzmash magwell on it. the well was 50 euro.

it did not cycle low brass out of the box. so i did change the springs. 1911 springs work great and they are cheap and i do have tons of the sitting around. but did not help a lot

so we drilled another hole in the gasblock. just removed the front sight drilled down put a screw in the hole were the front sight was and that was that.

then just polishing the feed ramp and funneling the tongues on top of the chamber.

as we are not allowed to convert i have the trigger far away from the mag release and the safety lever. so i did weld a knob on the safety lever to be able to reach it. i could have bought a krebs lever but they are hard to get and expensive here. the lever is spring steel and because of the welding it did loose its tension and moves like butter now.

i did weld an ordinary hex key on the mag release to bridge the gap to the trigger. i now just have to push down on the 90 degree part of the key to release the mag. it falls out in a heartbeat. here again i could have used one from krebs but that one runs on the left side of the gun and thats where my sidemount is.

granted its not a thing of beauty and i do have some pics over at the saiga forum but then again its a gun and i dont really care for beauty on a gun. i want a non nonsense gun and if it shaves off a second i would mount a toilet seat on it

it now cycles 24g low brass flawlessly and i will be going to the shotgun world championships in hungary end of september with it. if you are there too you can take a look.

However, as much as i like the Saiga the Akdal is the better platfrom if compared to a non converted Saiga we are forced to have here. And its much less to do and much cheaper to mod for open than the Saiga but keep in mind that we dont have this parts count thing. so we must not change that many parts

[RWF]

i do not know what $800 is equal too in dollars, but the few i took the time to price were in $700-around 900. the one for almost 900 was the last one i saw. but it just happened to be at the gun store i was at. i am sure it could had cheaper.

anyway i would not know what to do to make it run, like you did. Akdal does seem to be the way to go once the mags get readly availavle.

your gunsmithing sounds better than mine, get a bigger hammer. there were a fews times i thought a distroyed my Versa Max but it runs like a champ now!

it is less than a year old and looks like it has been to hell and back.

i had to do it because you are not suppose to use a speed chute and a pistol grip together, and the few gun smiths that know about a racing shotgun really did not want to try.

[fritzthemoose]

i do not know what $800 is equal too in dollars, but the few i took the time to price were in $700-around 900. the one for almost 900 was the last one i saw. but it just happened to be at the gun store i was at. i am sure it could had cheaper.

anyway i would not know what to do to make it run, like you did. Akdal does seem to be the way to go once the mags get readly availavle.

your gunsmithing sounds better than mine, get a bigger hammer. there were a fews times i thought a distroyed my Versa Max but it runs like a champ now!

it is less than a year old and looks like it has been to hell and back.

i had to do it because you are not suppose to use a speed chute and a pistol grip together, and the few gun smiths that know about a racing shotgun really did not want to try.

akdal 10 round oem mags will be available in fall. at least here in europe

the saiga is not so hard to get to run its more to know how. after that its more or less easy. not that i did it myself but if someone knows its way around tools its not hard.

in the end its a kalasnhikov u use them for hammering open tanks if you run out of at capabilities

[Alaskapopo]

I havent put much thought into a saiga. What mods are done to them for open? Anyone have a good site i can go to to check them out?

For Open you pretty much need a mag fed shotgun and the best there is is the R&R Saiga.

http://randrtargets.com/site/

Here is mine.

Its really not that much work. Just clean the gun before the match and change recoil springs often. Use quality cases like Winchester AA that are slick and not ribbed. This gun allowed me to get 5th place on a stage at the Texas Multigun Nationals last April that was all shotgun. Thats not how I placed in the match. (got 24th out of 52 open shooters) An R&R Saiga with a 20 round mag is just awsome.

The only other viable option tube gun option is the Xrail but it has its own unique set of pros and cons.

Pat

Edited August 16, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[orangeman711]

Although it wasn't one of your original choices try a Benelli. They just run and run and run. Plus they smoothly digest any ammo, cheap Wally World stuff or the more expensive stuff. Also don't need near the cleaning the others do, especially the

Remingtons. Good luck.

[outerlimits]

If you shoot a tube gun you will suck. I will sell you my Benny hill 930 cause I'll never be competitive. Gonna buy a mag fed gun so I can be cool like pat. Just sayin...

[Alaskapopo]

If you shoot a tube gun you will suck. I will sell you my Benny hill 930 cause I'll never be competitive. Gonna buy a mag fed gun so I can be cool like pat. Just sayin...

Times change and stuff becomes obsolete. Investing in a non Xrail tube gun for open is like buying a nice single stack 38 super with a comp and a Aimpoint for a pistol.

Seriously though a mag fed gun is a game changer.

pat

Edited August 16, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[shovel_doctor]

Thank you to everyone for the great information.

[dcloudy777]

Just bought this...

from Centerfire Systems. Apparently Jim (Firebird) does the basic workover on them for Centerfire. Going to the Dark Side next year!

[RWF]

Just bought this...

from Centerfire Systems. Apparently Jim (Firebird) does the basic workover on them for Centerfire. Going to the Dark Side next year!

WHAT!!!!! NO not you the master all things with a pump shotgun!

[Topmaul]

I like the Saiga because you can do your own work, I've done mine, and it's not all that hard.

[JetPow]

I have an Akdal the full blown open bought straight from Firebird and still didn't put a single round on it because it only has 10 rounds on each mag. I prefer using my tube fed with Xrail.

[pjb45]

I am new to 3Gun. I was on a squad at SMMM3G this year. There were many Saigas on the squad. Some very well respected shooters/suppliers were using them. At least one of them failed on every stage that required a shotgun. This may not represent the norm but I was not enthralled with their reliability. They seemed to very sensitive to different types of ammo among other things.

There are people who will work on them. That adds to the expense. Jim at Firebird was among the first to modify them. Many others are using his concepts.

Jim is heavily involved in the 1919. It too needs a lot of work to get to run properly. Jim is probably the best around on both platforms.

For tube guns :roflol: talk with Taran Butler about Benelli guns. His stuff is great.

No real offense to the other shotgunner out there but B-guns run and TTI is the best at modifying them.

[Alaskapopo]

I am new to 3Gun. I was on a squad at SMMM3G this year. There were many Saigas on the squad. Some very well respected shooters/suppliers were using them. At least one of them failed on every stage that required a shotgun. This may not represent the norm but I was not enthralled with their reliability. They seemed to very sensitive to different types of ammo among other things.

There are people who will work on them. That adds to the expense. Jim at Firebird was among the first to modify them. Many others are using his concepts.

Jim is heavily involved in the 1919. It too needs a lot of work to get to run properly. Jim is probably the best around on both platforms.

For tube guns :roflol: talk with Taran Butler about Benelli guns. His stuff is great.

No real offense to the other shotgunner out there but B-guns run and TTI is the best at modifying them.

Well not all Saigas are created equal. If you want a Saiga get an R&R one. My friend 9x23 guy has came in 1st at every large match we had up here in the state this year using my R&R shotgun. I finished 2nd in 2 of those matches and 4th in another. (no fault of the shotgun when I got 4th just did not shoot to my potential).

Here are some clips.

9x23 guy

Me

The R&R Saiga was a huge advantage on the long shotgun stages. Guys with tube guns were well over 20 seconds behind us on the large stage with 28 targets and the spinner at the end. And on Saigas Rob at R&R is simply the best Saiga man there is. During the match in the videos with both of us using the shotgun I only experienced one malfunction when shooting off my left shoulder and it was a simple fix. (rack the bolt) I saw a lot more self induced malfunctions from shooters with tube guns spilling shells all over the ground with speed loaders.

To further show you R&R's dominance in the Saiga field 4 R&R Saiga shotguns were in the top 7 slots at the Nordic Tactical Shotgun Championship this past weekend at the Deltone/Luth Gun Range in St. Cloud, Minn. 1st Place Open Division and also top Senior was Doug Hartley. Duke Seibold took 2nd. Robert Wright came in 5th and Dustin Lohof took 7th.

As for the Firebird Akdal. They recoil a lot more at least it seemed to to me when I fired one, the comp sucks that comes on the Firebird Akdal. If they put a better comp on it, come out with mags that work that hold at least 12 with some 20 rounders as well then you will have an awsome platform.

Pat

Edited September 18, 2012 by Alaskapopo