Speed vs accuracy

[dezz]

Good day all, I am a newbie shooter of 2 years and having a tough time with deciding how to practice and shoot a match. I am a IDPA sharpshooter and USPSA B limited shooter. He is my problem, I can shoot accurate but kinda slow (splits .30-.35) and with this approach I can be very consistent compared to others I shoot against. Might not win my class but usually get close.

The other me can shoot fast for my skill level, have good splits and usually keep them in the center of mass. Problem is I am not consistent with this approach and usually either a hero or a zero. With this approach if I am on I can usually beat most experts.If I am not it is ugly.

Common sense would tell me to shoot slow and consistent but its like I have a little devil on my shoulder yelling at me to shoot fast. It is way more fun for me to shoot fast as slow and consistent is a little boring.

I really am in love with practical shooting and stay up at night trying to figure out how to get to the next level. Probably need some mental counseling.

Would appreciate any advice.

thank you

[blaster113]

with this game you have to get that balance between the two; your score can suffer if you shoot accurate but too slow, or blazing fast with bad hits/mikes. The goal I strive for in matches and in practice is 90% A hits with no D's or mikes as quickly as possible.

Movement will eat up a lot of time. If you can move fast and efficiently through the stage that will help get better scores.

What really helped me progress was a structured dry fire/live fire training program. I used Mike Seeklander's program which got me from being stuck in high C into A class. YMMV; the more live fire practice you can get in the faster you'll move up. I really want to take a training class from a top shooter, but cost is a factor since I live in the middle of the pacific ocean

[alellis]

I have seen this debated to death over the years, The conclusion I have come to is, to shoot As as fast as you can.

But you won't know you are going as fast as you can until you hit a c. So keep the Cs to a minimum.

You can't miss fast enough to win. I can't remember who said that but I think it's true.

al

[dezz]

Sorry for beating a dead horse but it seems like a simple sport till the buzzer goes off. Thank you for the response and will try more dry firing and shooting A's.

[daves_not_here]

Dezz,

I'm about two years into the IDPA game.

If you shoot IDPA you probably do need mental counseling...I call mine "trigger therapy".

No, you're not beating a dead horse. Every course I've taken has addressed this very question.

Check out this thread. Felt slow but was blazing fast

The speed vs. accuracy discussion is the essence of the practical shooting sports that have a time element.

Yes, it is simple. At the buzzer align gun with target and make it go bang repeat until out of targets.

It is also very difficult. There's a lot going on and it has be be coordinated and balanced.

You talk about your splits. What about your transitions and reloads? Those take up more time and there's a lot of "speed" that can be gained there.

So, also add reload practice. That's where a second or two can be shaved off a stage.

DNH

Edited July 15, 2012 by daves_not_here

[dezz]

Thanks DNH, makes sense and I liked the thread. I do practice reloads and transitions but as in most things I can practice harder. When I watch other shooters that is the single biggest area I see where you can make up time on the competition. Tomorrow is a local IDPA match and I am going to do my best to shoot all 0's. Will give that a try and see what happens.

thanks

[daves_not_here]

Dezz,

How did yesterday go?

I had an accidental discharge coming around a corner. There was a non-threat covering everything but the head of a threat. I had the gun high and drove it around the edge like I've been practicing. Because of the head shot and non-threat in the way I was going to take it slow.

Before I knew it I AD'd!

Center punched the head!

I guess everything was right and I was waiting for a conscious confirmation on a head shot. My subconscious didn't think it was necessary to inform me that it was pulling the trigger and my conscious mind wasn't quick enough to ask any questions.

So, "Shoot A's as fast as you can" ultimately means ingraining the shots in the subconscious and watching the show.

Your question "speed vs. accuracy" is probably influenced by how much is done with the subconscious where most of act of shooting is purely reflexive. Making shooting second nature opens the door to many lifetimes of practice and study.

I have never heard that the pursuit of this wasn't worthwhile.

DNH

[benos]

I have seen this debated to death over the years, The conclusion I have come to is, to shoot As as fast as you can.

... shoot As as fast as you can know you are shooting all A's.

[benos]

Making shooting second nature opens the door to many lifetimes of practice and study.

I have never heard that the pursuit of this wasn't worthwhile.

DNH

I like that a lot. Because what you learn there transfers to everything you do.

be

[amish_rabbi]

im new as well, but what i find is if i stick to my natural rythmn i stay there, but when i push faster and out of that then i do do worse for a while (2-3 weeks of steel practice) but then i get back to the accuracy that i was at before at the slower times

[CocoBolo]

Splained in simple terms. The questions itself is an oxymoron. Quote below from well know member of this site:

Take the time you need to make the hit but only that time.

IMHO any time you consciously think about shooting faster or slower you are messing up your game. The speed you need is in your feet, your reload, your draw, and finding that one spot and being ready when you get there.

[Steve Anderson]

Accuracy IS Speed.

Why would you pull the trigger without an acceptable sight picture? What exactly does that accomplish?

Would it be faster to call 6 shots on six poppers or pull the trigger 6 times realy quickly?

And I agree with post above. Most slow times have very little to do with the splits.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Why would you pull the trigger without an acceptable sight picture?

I think that makes perfect sense to master-level shooters, but new shooters often have very little idea whether their sight picture is acceptable or not. Sometimes they see "enough" and hit; sometimes they see "enough" and don't.

[JimmyZip]

What is your situation as far as access to a range? I really think that you can teach yourself to shoot As faster by practicing drills that stress speed, and either make your targets tighter with no-shoots and hardcover, or push them out. Set the drills up so that you can practice going left, or right, put your targets in your arrays about 2-3 feet apart, and put your arrays and shooting spots at least four to five steps apart. Time it going into from one side then the other. Add a third in the middle and practice moving shorter distances and experiment with your steps. If your splits are that slow, and you are a B shooter, than work on your strengths too. You must move pretty well. Practice that instead of forcing your accuracy to catch up. Work on your unloaded starts, mags on a table start, all the stuff you might suck at. Kick your weakhand butt, and SHO too. I bet if you are hitting out farther on a regular basis, like do Bianchi plates at distance for speed, and are stronger with all the other things, your speed will be there before you know it. IF you are forcing your accuracy and movement in practice, you will usually have speed come up with it.

Just my.20

[daves_not_here]

Not-So-Mad,

Being premature on the trigger is a habit of mine.

It seems that acceptable sight picture and trigger press timing is the root of the "accurate speed" question regardless of the level of shooter.

However, where I am as a shooter it's the reloads and transitions that eat up all the time. For me working on faster splits is going to give me very little improvement overall. Transitions on the other hand is where I've got a lot of room for improvement.

Right now I'm trying everything to improve my transitions and reduce premature trigger. Any suggestions or discussion would be welcome!

DNH

[daves_not_here]

Duplicate post deleted.

Edited July 18, 2012 by daves_not_here

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Being premature on the trigger is a habit of mine.

If that's the case -- and many of us went through that phase, some more recently than others -- then emphasize visual patience and err on the side of waiting too long to break the shot. You should find yourself suddenly dropping far fewer points but only taking a few extra tenths to complete the stage.

Then, in your dry-fire practice, try to speed up your transitions without losing that quality of sight picture -- and test yourself with some live-fire practice.

[daves_not_here]

Matt,

It looks like this approach worked well for you this weekend.

Thanks for explaining what to look for in transitions.

Congrats,

DNH

[Chris iliff]

Listen to the devil. Just put your focus on the sights. Do lots of Bill Drills. Do drills like the el presidente. Blaze away and learn to see what CAN be seen.

I hate the go slow get your hits mantra. Eventually somewhere between B and GM your gonna have to learn to shoot how a M/GM shoots. Pretty sure it ain't slow. Everyone will learn it differently, but results are the same, fast shooting with good hits. I hate these discussions because we are a time based sport but we constantly hear that we should not think about time. I agree completely. I just find it hard to explain to newer shooters. I think you learn to SEE, it's just easier to say fast or slow. How do we learn to SEE at that level? By shooting faster and observing, over and over until it pops and you are doing it.

If every one was completely honest I think you'd find that not one GM got there going slow and getting the hits, or blazing away and not seeing.

I use to run, I'd hear "how can I run faster?". Simple answer, RUN FASTER!

Push your speed and OBSERVE in practice.

P.S. I don't believe you are a newb. I believe you are seasoned enough that you are asking the right questions. The answers in the EYES. Of course, I'm just an A, so grain of salt with my rambling post! Good luck.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Chris iliff

[JakeMartens]

Can you call your shots?

Can you track your sights?

Don't slow down, just learn how to shoot at speed more accurately.

Yeah that sounds simple, and really it is if you understand what is happening when you pull the trigger. Yeah foot speed reloads transistion blah blah blah. DoD you see what you need to see in relation to the sights and the target. Do not thing about time, do not think about draw or reloads. That comes from practice and doing it over and over again so during a stage it is machnical.

Being able to shoot fast and accurate is about vision and seeing what you need to to make an a hit twice in a row on every target.

If you have a good grip, good trigger control and prepping the trigger then the rest is sight

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I had an accidental discharge coming around a corner. There was a non-threat covering everything but the head of a threat. I had the gun high and drove it around the edge like I've been practicing. Because of the head shot and non-threat in the way I was going to take it slow.

Before I knew it I AD'd!

Center punched the head!

Dave, I wouldn't say you have a problem with being premature on the trigger. You simply got burned recently by being premature on the trigger, and the incident is stuck in your craw.

If you're otherwise shooting accurately but too slowly, keep working on your mag changes, movement, and transitions, and let the AD go. These things happen.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I hate the go slow get your hits mantra.

I think you're right that go slow is the wrong way to phrase it, because you want to go fast -- without rushing your shots. That's why I like the term visual patience. Go fast, but don't break the shot until you know you're going to get your hit.

How do we learn to SEE at that level? By shooting faster and observing, over and over until it pops and you are doing it.

As others have pointed out, it helps to make the conscious decision to see the sights. Then, with a few hundred hours of practice, you'll just start seeing the sights without any conscious effort.

[Teambosing]

I have seen this debated to death over the years, The conclusion I have come to is, to shoot As as fast as you can.

... shoot As as fast as you can know you are shooting all A's.

Best advice!!!

[Chris iliff]

You got some very good advice here.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Chris iliff

[MI Noob]

I came here tonight looking for answers to this very question and was happy to find this thread and the others people list.

For me, picking up the speed IS the issue. If time were nothing, we could all hit As all day. Or at least should be able to as a C shooter.

Knowing how fast you can go and still hit 90% or better Alphas is something that takes time and practice to learn.

Thanks for all the great tips.