stre-tch Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Has anyone seen someone use a bullpup rifle for 3-gun? I got reading in the shotgun forum about the use of the KSG and thought someone might have used a bullpup rifle for 3-gun. I wonder if it would even be feasible to compare it with the AR15. You would be trading speed on magazine changes for a shorter overall length and mobility? Just curious (mental exercises on a hot day ) if it's been done and done with any success? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Long, long ago I used an AUG in the first and 2nd USPSA three gun matches, seemed to work about as well as the AR-15s. Have no idea how one would compete today, the triggers aren't anywhere near as good and there seem to be a lot more long range shots than were in the original matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Back in the day (we are talking the last millenium) the AUG was competitive at the SOF match as it had a halfway decent optic. But even there, the AR with an ACOG quickly put an end to any chance of AUG dominance. The AUG is pretty much the same gun as it was back then (except you can put better sights on it) whereas the AR's development has hardly slowed down. AUGs did see some use in Tucson's practical shooting community and I even got to shoot a couple of matches with amigo's AUGs. Could you shoot an AUG or other bullpup in 3 gun or practical rifle? Sure. Will you beat a shooter of the same skill level shooting an AR with a trigger kit? Not likely. That same shooter shooting a full on raced up JP/Lancer/Larue etc etc? Even less likely. Can you manuever an AUG out of a car faster? Sure. Can you shoot a series of IPSC targets at 50 yards and then drop and hit a plate at 300 faster? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I've seen one guy shoot an AUG/MSAR at a local 3gun match. It seemed like it was his first time out, or at least in a while as I didn't recognize him. Mag changes weren't the issue with 42 round mags. It was the longer targets, and the positions you shot from. AR's were able to rest the handgaurd on the tower railing whereas the AUG couldn't. It seemed like it was more difficult to build a solid position utilizing a front rest with the AUG. The only plus seems to be the OAL, but from what I see it doesn't matter. I think in most COF you could add 5" to the end of anyone's rifle and they wouldn't be any slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stre-tch Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 Thanks for the info guys! I wonder if they are more prevalent in 3 gun matches over in Europe (don't know the rules and reg's over there but possibly with more countries using them possibly more private individuals as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) Mag changes aren't a problem - they can be done quickly and there are magazines available that hold enough ammo. Splits are a problem. Show me a bullpup that can keep up with a Geissle SD3G. Edited July 9, 2012 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Having shot in Europe, I can say that the AR rules the Old World as much as the New. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronswin Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I've used my MSAR-556 AUG clone in several 3-gun matches (mostly for fun)and it does have certain advantages. It's light, compact, fairly accurate and with a 20-inch barrel it's shorter than an M4 carbine. Trigger pull isn't an issue as company called Ratworx is making a drop-in hybrid trigger pack that will use standard AR-15 trigger parts and is tunable just like AR rifles. The AUG can be fired left or right-handed with a bolt conversion or weak-handed with strong hand as an improvised brass deflector. Mag changes are slower, but I use Steyr 42-round magazines so it kinda evens out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 A few years ago we had a shooter come through the stage I was working with a FN 2000. He did not seem to be having a very good time. But, I'm sure it wasn't all the fault of the rifle..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montrala Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 It seemed like it was more difficult to build a solid position utilizing a front rest with the AUG. My friend is using AUG (AUG-Z A3) in out 3Gun here. He is doing fine with it, also against guys with ARs. Even with magazine changes (we have 10 rounds loaded rule - not law requirement, but we have small ranges, short stages plus some people are using really basic stuff, so we decided to level playground a little). He developed interesting shooting position. He wears heat resistant glove on his left hand and grip his AUG by barrel. It gives him solid shooting stance and very fast transitions. For shooting from barricade, he rest rifle on barrel. Does not seem to kill accuracy, not to 300m at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullpup Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I have a Bushmaster M17S that I would really like to try sometime for fun, but the competitor in me keeps me from doing it because I know I wouldn't shoot it as well as my AR. The M17 is heavier than my AR and the trigger is long and heavy. I do want to try it sometime though. Here is a picture of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I think it would be interesting to see a Kel Tec RFB in a Heavy Metal Optics match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I think it would be interesting to see a Kel Tec RFB in a Heavy Metal Optics match. My thinking exactly. But is the trigger up to the task for serious accuracy on longer-range shots? I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchang0 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) I ran an FN FS2000 with Trijicon TA-33GH ACOG for quite a while. It works well enough for matches up to 200yds, but the AR starts to pull ahead beyond that range. It comes down to the trigger--there just isn't any way to bring the FS2000's trigger pull down below 6lbs. without seriously compromising the safety of the rifle. I'll still run it occasionally at matches where I know the furthest target is 275yds or less. It is faster on CQB but terrible for bracing on barricades and clearing malfs. Edited July 18, 2012 by dchang0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THM7 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I have a FS2000 and have a good time with it...not in 3gun however. And I agree clearing a malfunction is a PIA with that gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) I think it would be interesting to see a Kel Tec RFB in a Heavy Metal Optics match. My thinking exactly. But is the trigger up to the task for serious accuracy on longer-range shots? I have no idea. If your willing to sit through the videos Nutnfacy on youtube did a video series with Kel-Tec comparing the RFB to other .308 platforms. They used an m1a socom if I remember, SCAR17, and an DPMS AR-10 as well as the RFB. If you don't mind their comments its interesting to see how they felt about the gun. Since they were running it in a run and gun format. They do make comments on how they don't like the trigger, and the problem of it using FAL magazines. I wouldn't use it since I don't really like bullpups that much but I would still find it interesting to see someone run it in a match. But then again I find anyone using anything thats not an AR-15 interesting. First video of 4: http://youtu.be/4QOK0MQCr1o Edited July 20, 2012 by Fenrir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atp Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) But is the trigger up to the task for serious accuracy on longer-range shots? I have no idea. From my limited experience with the Kel-Tec RFB so far, I'd say its trigger is "ok"; not bad, but not great either. Definitely not a tuned match trigger. However, if it's not good enough for your needs, apparently it can be significantly improved. In the "Has anyone done triger job on a RFB?" thread, on 2012-06-25 user "4sfed" explained how he made his RFB's trigger adjustable, with good pictures of the inner workings, here: www dot thektog dot org/forum/f91/has-anyone-done-trigger-job-rfb-241577/index5.html#post2156181 (Grr, this forum software won't let me properly post the link above.) Edited July 25, 2012 by atp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Had a guy run the FN2000 at the CTM3GI match. Took him, two RO's and the MD and a pocket knife to get the double feed cleared out. No way would I run that for competition or defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think it would be interesting to see a Kel Tec RFB in a Heavy Metal Optics match. My thinking exactly. But is the trigger up to the task for serious accuracy on longer-range shots? I have no idea. If your willing to sit through the videos Nutnfacy on youtube did a video series with Kel-Tec comparing the RFB to other .308 platforms. They used an m1a socom if I remember, SCAR17, and an DPMS AR-10 as well as the RFB. If you don't mind their comments its interesting to see how they felt about the gun. Since they were running it in a run and gun format. They do make comments on how they don't like the trigger, and the problem of it using FAL magazines. I wouldn't use it since I don't really like bullpups that much but I would still find it interesting to see someone run it in a match. But then again I find anyone using anything thats not an AR-15 interesting. First video of 4: http://youtu.be/4QOK0MQCr1o Thanks for that link. I had caught part of one of the four videos and then had to step away and never came back to it. I apply a particular filter to Nutnfancy and discover some useful information. And it is interesting that they get Chad from Kel-Tec to fool around with the RFB as well as the KSG in the other series. Wish I could drop in a CMC trigger group. I might consider picking one up for some 308-style blasting and the once in a while HMO 3-gunning. Oh well.....off to the video series to see it in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montrala Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Those guys seem to operate their bulpups quite fast and efficient. Look at mag changes. Chinese Army Shooting Competition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atp Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Those guys seem to operate their bulpups quite fast and efficient. Look at mag changes. Yes, that's an interesting video. There are some approximate translations of the in-video commentary here: www thefirearmblog com/blog/2010/06/23/chinese-army-marksman-competition/ They're using a strong-hand reload; some Kel-Tec RFB shooters have decided that works best for them too. I wonder though how those soldiers safe their rifle and sling it; I didn't see that. The Chinese QBZ-95 rifle reportedly has its safety/selector in a god-awful position near the buttplate, and those shooters all coped with that by ignoring the safety lever completely. They're starting with their rifles in condition zero (empty chamber, full magazine, safety off) and running the charging handle immediately before firing. From the description on YouTube, those guys are preparing for some sort of army shooting competition. They may eventually regret training to discard their magazines during the reload like that though, as if they're ever in a real shooting war I doubt they'll be promptly resupplied with new ones. For civilian Three-Gun competition it doesn't matter, but soldiers like that should have a dump pouch (they don't) and probably save most of their magazines. Ah, here's another video, "PLA shooting on the move excercise.": www youtube com/watch?v=MW1mRU9t6rk When doing a transition to pistol, that guy definitely seems to just throw the rifle over his shoulder without messing with any safety levers. His rifle looks like the original model, not the newer QBZ-95G (aka Type 95-1) with a thumb-actuated safety lever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montrala Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) They're starting with their rifles in condition zero (empty chamber, full magazine, safety off) and running the charging handle immediately before firing. Actually this is "condition 2". "Condition 0" is chamber loaded, magazine attached and safety off. BTW Eastern Block countries never used dump pouches. On exercises you collect magazines, but in real fight nobody cared. Especially that doctrine called for massive infantry assaults. If assault is successful, troops can collect magazines later (actually logistics go over battle field to salvage), if not, they are probably all dead anyway and area is under opfor control. I do not think that PLA thinks any different. Edited August 9, 2012 by Montrala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atp Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 They're starting with their rifles in condition zero (empty chamber, full magazine, safety off) and running the charging handle immediately before firing. Actually this is "condition 2". Hm, seems we both forgot (or mistyped) the correct terminology! As of course, chamber empty is condition three. E.g.: dvc org uk/jeff/jeff13_6.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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