barrysuperhawk Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Apparently I need some practice. At CMMG this year, I did very poorly on the Stage 9 flying targets [0 for 8] so I decided I was going to go out and shoot some local trap to "brush up" on my shotgunning. Part of my problem was the cylinder bore barrel I have on my 590. I just ordered a barrel I can put chokes into, so that part shouldn't be so bad, but that wasn't my problem today. Today my problem was point of aim. I am running a 20" barrel with a hi-viz fiberoptic sight and it seemed like I had to cover the bird to hit it [i hit 6/25 today, and even the 10 year old next to me did better - my only consolation was that I said pull with my action open and shells still on my belt, and still managed to hit 6... ] I am not a speed demon, I think the 6 I hit today were more a product of my ridiculusly wide pattern than any latent talent, I seally sucked today. I know real trap guns have these elaborate ribs, extra beads, etc. to facilitate aiming, but I am not going to modify my SG [beyond adding chokes] just to get better at trap, at the expense of 3 gunning, what I need to do is learn how to work with the equipment I have. I have looked at a few trap instruction videos, but they all seem geared toward trap guns and are very specific. So, back to basics, I need to learn about sight picture and swinging the gun, and I need to learn some basics before I even go back out, or I am just wasting ammo and guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fueddy Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I did 5 stand and clays after CMMG due to stage 9 also. On our 2nd trip in the sporting clays I got 30 of the 50. Everyone I know that does Sporting Clays weekly said follow through and don't aim....just shoot to me many times lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 The very first thing you need to do is shoot the gun at a pattern board. Mark the PB with an aiming point, back off the distance you want to approximate, use a steady stick or something of the sort to let you hold steady at a six o'clock hold and shoot one shot. Where does the pattern appear on the PB? Do this several times, each time with a clean pattern board (paper or grease) and you will have an idea where the gun is shooting and what you will have to do so it shoots where you want it to. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I find that most of the time misses on flying clays are from either stopping the gun or raising my head off the stock. Decide what type lead you want to use and concentrate on not stopping the gun and keep your head down. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry weeks Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I've shot 24 of 25 with my 21" Benelli so you can do it. I end up using Mod. choke for trap. As Mike P said, don't stop the gun and keep your head down. Pat Miles pattern board is the most important part of it all. If you have a Benelli you can use the shims to adjust drop, and cast. Watch the bird, both eyes open, with the barrel in your peripheral vision. I swing through the bird with a 6 o'clock hold because 60% of my pattern is above the sight. Your brain can figure it out, just let it do it and don't think too much. Eye on the clay, chase the clay, shoot the clay. I shot my 24, 2 nights before CMMG and only got 2 of 8 because I was thinking about what I had to do next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzworm Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I have a lot of trouble with fliers also. I am used to getting on a target, try to held steady, squeeze, and move on. The idea of follow through was foreign to me, really had to work at it. We also have no shotgun shooting places anywhere near me, so I bought one of the electric throwers and started working on it. Works off a car battery. MAN, you can go through some ammo and clay birds with one of those, and still suck when done. It takes some getting used to it, but it was worth the effort, as it at least let me know what chokes work best for me, and helps with that follow through thing. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I would say if you are shooting trap to work on getting your hits I would keep it simple and start low ready gun ready to go. Once you are hitting consistently then I would add extra steps to the training. Also on a normal trap range the birds are going away from you in a big hurry and a cylinder bore gun will need to get the shot off quickly in order for the pattern to not open up to much and have it fly all around the bird without hitting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Yeah I would say stick with the basics and hit the birds before you start loading and stuff. Trap and Skeet were my games growing up, but I was never the best at it. I think the trick is to learn that you're going to not be aiming at the actual bird when you take the shot. You will be in front, above, behind, etc. Sporting clays is the best at this, since the angles are weird and vary. Don't worry about the lack of "proper gear", so shoot what you have. Talk to the old timers about the tricks and learn all you can. the best practice for this we had in a while was my 3G team just messing around on the range. we would throw a random amount of birds in random directions for each other. really got you to focus, make hits, and transition. Plus, once you realize you can take 5 birds at a time before they hit the ground, you know you can pop 1 or 2 in a known direction. My personal best was shooting the round, getting the hull to fly forward, then shooting that empty hull in total Tom Knapp style. Yes, we got it on video, too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarpau Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 come on. Flying clays are easy. Just ask this guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agusta Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Using your 3gun shotgun to learn to shoot clays is not nearly as important as learning the proper technique so i'd set your gun aside for the short term. Pay for 1 lesson and you'll learn more from an instructor you pay $75 or $100 for an hour of instruction than you'll get out of a flat of shells and many hours on your own. The targets thrown in 3 gun matches are the most elementary in the clays games for good reason and it won't take much to get busting all the 3 gun clays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrody Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 As others have mentioned, Stopping the Gun and keeping your head on the stock are two big fundamentals. The next one is shoot where you look. (assuming the gun fits you right) I am a clays shooter and now just venturing into Pistol and Rifle. Totally opposite sight pictures. In clays, after I shoulder, all I see is the clay with a hard focus on the bird. The shotgun is simply an extension of where I am looking. I can do this because I have the general fundamentals of mounting the gun and knowing it is pointing where I am looking. Keeping my head on the stock retains this aim without need for me to focus on the sights at all. I dont even need the sights. I do need the gun to fit me right. In pistol and rifle, as I was told by others, my hard focus is mainly on the sights. This so far seems to be accurate. I'm no clay champion, but I can tell you that a Cylinder choke or a flat aiming gun would not prevent me from hitting birds consistently (trap/sporting, whatever). Those factors may make you lose a couple of birds, but the true meaning of the miss generally comes from one of the other factors. Good luck, and you do know when you have it when you stop thinking and just shoot (as others have said). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assaulter Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Using your 3gun shotgun to learn to shoot clays is not nearly as important as learning the proper technique so i'd set your gun aside for the short term. Pay for 1 lesson and you'll learn more from an instructor you pay $75 or $100 for an hour of instruction than you'll get out of a flat of shells and many hours on your own. The targets thrown in 3 gun matches are the most elementary in the clays games for good reason and it won't take much to get busting all the 3 gun clays. You didn't shoot the Midwest 3gun match this year did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agusta Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Using your 3gun shotgun to learn to shoot clays is not nearly as important as learning the proper technique so i'd set your gun aside for the short term. Pay for 1 lesson and you'll learn more from an instructor you pay $75 or $100 for an hour of instruction than you'll get out of a flat of shells and many hours on your own. The targets thrown in 3 gun matches are the most elementary in the clays games for good reason and it won't take much to get busting all the 3 gun clays. You didn't shoot the Midwest 3gun match this year did you? No but if you're referring to difficulty of targets I would be shocked if they were tougher than a typical setup for a corporate shoot. Most casual shotgun shooters would consider this setup relatively difficult. Most serious clay shooters consider this elementary and unchallenging. Just as most shooters would be challenged by an IPSC, USPSA or other pistol matches that a regular shooter of those sports has seen multiple times. Same with a shotgun speedload. A clay shooter wouldn't be in the class of even the most basic 3 gunner in a speed reload. Technique and practice is the key not equipment. Just checked out a video on youtube of it and though difficult to tell from the angle it looked like there were a couple or a few poppers and then some crossers at about 20-25 yards. A good instructor will have most shooters breaking those all day long in no time. I'd be happy to take anyone in Dallas out to the clay range and help them out for free(I'm not an instructor but have learned from some good ones). Just takes a PM. I've had plenty of people give me tips and pointers on rifle and pistol and am always happy to pay it forward with a game I know well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Eye dominance issues? I tried shooting skeet for the first time last year ... Well the best way to explain it is my eyes or vision got all trippey, especially when trying to watch the bird come out of the high house with my left eye. Came back later for sporting clays and put scotch tape over the left lens. Did much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrysuperhawk Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 Eye dominance issues? I tried shooting skeet for the first time last year ... Well the best way to explain it is my eyes or vision got all trippey, especially when trying to watch the bird come out of the high house with my left eye. Came back later for sporting clays and put scotch tape over the left lens. Did much better. Nope, I have even shot a highpower round with both eyes open to see if I could do it [only 200y, but every shot was made with both eyes open, and I was still 5th..] Every year brings new challenges. The last few have been pistol accuracy [when every match switched to those 5" plates for pistol] then it was shotgun reloading speed, then it was rifle accuracy , now it's flying targets and general shot performance. No complaints, I am a much better shooter now than I was, but a challenge is, well, challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modoc Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) Barry, I don't know about your 590, but with my 1887 and 1897 Winchesters with the cut down barrels (20"), I had to have the angle of the bit pad changed to bring them both back to POI/POA. It turned out that the stocks were regulated with a 30" tube and I was shooting a foot or more low with the cut down tubes. Not much of an issue on static targets, but it made a difference on some of the flyers (crossing and departing). Edited June 13, 2012 by Modoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten-X Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Also keep in mind that Trap is a really different game from Skeet and Clays, which are more similar in nature. I think that clays is the best thing for developing a general overall proficiency with a shotgun (except for loading 8 in the tube in 5 seconds - haha). Skeet is also a good game. Trap is a much more dedicated game and the skills (long shots, all rising) are more unique. The long barreled trap guns with tall ribs are for getting the pattern above the sight and for a tall and upright stance. The gun really does help make trap a more fun game. I don't really like to shoot trap with a general purpose gun. Clays is the best since you have to learn how to pick up the bird, adjust to different angles and make quick shots. All good skills for 3 Gun. Skeet really trains you how to lead a bird. And of course, as others have mentioned, keep your head down (that is a must in 3 Gun too) and keep the gun moving. Even if you get the right lead, you can't loose it when the trigger gets pulled. Good luck and find a place to shoot some clays, it's worth it, and fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBets Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Midwest 3 gun clays were actually a very challenging flying bird array. The crosser would come out first but the shooter could not see the thrower or the bird right away. That crosser would present itself through a clearing in the trees for a short time and while tracking that bird properly another clay was thrown going away at a slight angle. Proper follow thru on the crosser required a 30 plus yard stab on the going away clay as it disappeared into the brush. From the results less than 5 people out of all divisions shot the stage clean. I watched the super squad shoot the stage and no one shot it without a clay miss that I saw. Challenging to say the least and that stage alone has got me on the skeet range for the last two weeks straight Jacob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) Using your 3gun shotgun to learn to shoot clays is not nearly as important as learning the proper technique so i'd set your gun aside for the short term. Pay for 1 lesson and you'll learn more from an instructor you pay $75 or $100 for an hour of instruction than you'll get out of a flat of shells and many hours on your own. The targets thrown in 3 gun matches are the most elementary in the clays games for good reason and it won't take much to get busting all the 3 gun clays. "There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life." Ten Bears from "The Outlaw Josey Wales." There is much iron in the words of Agusta. You will learn much more, much faster with some expert instruction, and it will save you both time and money. Likely the first thing an instructor would tell you is, never shoot trap with a cylinder bore. It's kind'a like farting in a space suit. You'd be better off with a full choke, than cylinder. TAR Edited June 16, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrysuperhawk Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 Using your 3gun shotgun to learn to shoot clays is not nearly as important as learning the proper technique so i'd set your gun aside for the short term. Pay for 1 lesson and you'll learn more from an instructor you pay $75 or $100 for an hour of instruction than you'll get out of a flat of shells and many hours on your own. The targets thrown in 3 gun matches are the most elementary in the clays games for good reason and it won't take much to get busting all the 3 gun clays. "There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life." Ten Bears from "The Outlaw Josey Wales." There is much iron in the words of Agusta. You will learn much more, much faster with some expert instruction, and it will save you both time and money. Likely the first thing an instructor would tell you is, never shoot trap with a cylinder bore. It's kind'a like farting in a space suit. You'd be better off with a full choke, than cylinder. TAR I see your point, but my goal was never to get good at trap, or even to compete regularly. My Goal is to get better with the shotgun I have, at aerial targets as presented in 3 gun matches. Trap is simply the most convenient method I have available to get my shotgun pointed at aerial targets. I have 2 local ranges that shoot trap 1-2 times a week. Everything else [sporting clays, Skeet, Instruction] I have to travel/search for. My plan, if it could be that dignified, is to use what information I can glean from teh interwebs, and those 2 local trap ranges to practice and get better with the equipment that I actually shoot. I was sorely tempted after that 6/25 performance to go get a real trap gun, but it occured to me that a real trap gun wouldn't teach me how to shoot my 3gun shotgun as well as actually shooting my 3 gun shotgun... I have ordered a barrel with choke tubes that will fit my shotgun, and it will be here in a month or two, but until then, I am working with what I have, which is a cyl bore 20" 590. My only current advantage is that I have been shooting this particular gun almost exclusively for the better part of 20 years at 3gun targets so I am fairly well versed in it's operation [minus of course hitting that elusive flying target.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) Yes, the idea is to be good at 3gun with the gun you have, I get that, but your having trouble with flying targets, and have access to a trap field so learning leads, even trap leads will be a big, big help. My experienced with trap is limited, (never liked the game but shot a lot of skeet and some SC) but I can tell you shooting cylinder is a huge disadvantage in trap or SC. Never liked cylinder for anything, even skeet, it tends to throw a poor, and ragged pattern. I would echo the suggestion from above and use a trap gun for a short time, so you can get your leads down. They would be the same regardless of gun, (would only change with HV or really slow shells) it's just that the trap gun will give you a much improved sight radius and the using a better choke will be of immense help (and will boost your confidence). With cylinder... It reminds me of trying to learn to water ski for the first time, and someone hands you a pair of shoe skis. Can it be done, of course, but it makes learning so much harder. A good 3gunner can shoot with any gun, and at some matches they hand you a coach gun, or .338 so switching to a trap gun will just make getting you better at aerial targets easier and faster, you can always switch back to your 3gun any time you feel like it. Of course, this coming from someone who sleeps with dogs, and hunts with women. Edited June 17, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Okie dokie... On the eye dominance issue... Just for grins and giggles I'd try scotch taping a lens at least once to see what would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpowe Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 If you can get access to the trap ranges when they are not busy, i.e. when you can shoot by yourself, you don't have to stay on the trap shooting positions. Move forward to just behind the trap house, then off to one side or the other. It will give you better practice than standard 16 yard trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 The most common clay target that I see at three gun matches is tossed from a falling popper. Having a buddy hand toss birds one or two at a time (by hand not with a hand thrower, underhand) seems to be the best way to simulate what I see in matches. After a couple of boxes you will most likely look at birds a bit differently. It is also fun. It is a nice addition to the normal training and helps keep the range sessions fresh. You can even have two shooters and one tosser, turn it into a race, or my favorite is to have two shooters and a MGM double spinner at 10 yards, every time a shooter breaks 4 birds he then has to spin the double spinner before he can go back to shooting birds. The thrower just throws birds nonstop and the two shooters go ape shit trying to shoot the birds, reload, and spin the double spinner. The fun continues until both shooters have no more shells in their caddies or vests. Then the thrower takes his turn as a shooter. This game burns cases of birds and flats of shells with a high smile factor. I am sure there are better ways to train for popper tossed clays, but it would be tough for them to be as fun. I know that my bird busting has gone way up since training specifically for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemson0211 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) .... my only consolation was that I said pull with my action open and shells still on my belt, and still managed to hit 6... ....So, back to basics, I need to learn about sight picture and swinging the gun, and I need to learn some basics before I even go back out, or I am just wasting ammo and guessing. Personally, I don't think you'd be wasting time and ammo if you stop doing what's in bold. Learn to hit the clays first. Then add more difficult tasks, like starting at low ready. Going as far to start with an unloaded gun, cylinder bore and a skeet traveling away from you is just making it hard on yourself, really hard. Make it easy to get hits until you get the hang of it. Start at high ready or even with your head on the gun and sighting down the barrel. Only work up to more difficult tasks as you get your hits consistently. In addition to knowing where your pattern is going (poa/poi), another thing to consider with your cylinder bore, is you need to be hitting those targets as SOON as you can. The further away they get, the more your pattern opens up and you're lucky to get a pellet or two on the bird. Did you split alot of clays into large peices? or dust 'em? That is your indicator as to how good a hit you are getting. Don't forget to lead the skeet as well. The faster it's traveling and/or further away, the more you need to lead the skeet. May be able to watch some youtube vid's with animation to get a 'feel' for it. I hate shooting skeet with a cylinder bore. Modified all the way for me. Edited July 10, 2012 by clemson0211 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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