When Open shooters design stages...

[Harmon]

shooting in a 10 round division at the time, i grew to appreciate the thinking aspect of shooting, i appreciate a challenge, and something different, 32 round hoser stages can be fun if set up to make them different.

although some of the most challenging stages are deceptivey simple..

its not legal stage( i dont think anyways) but take a target out to 12 yards, set your timer with a 2.0 second par time and hands at sides, facing downrange, on start signal, get as many points as you can before the second buzzer sounds.

[johnhurd]

Looks like more than a few here advocate "Dumbing" down to the lowest common denominator, like they are doing in the Educational system in this country and we can all see how well that is working out!!!

How can one expect to improve if never challenged?

[JFD]

When I was actively building stages I tried to provide a mix of difficulty. Usually a steel-laden stage with 20+ yard 8" plates being the more difficult shots, a couple of run&gun hoser stages, some kind of standards type stage, and a classifier.

As I progressed, I left the difficulty level high on my "hard stage", but I started designing in ways for the shooter to move closer to the targets. If they wanted to take the extra time, then they did have a choice.

I never set up something like an upper A/B shot at 25 yards with no-shoots on either side of it. That I would call a "hard" shot. A full metric target at 25 yards is not something I'd call "hard", but it would be a challenge to get the full points for most of my shooters.

Personally I prefer difficult stages. I train for difficult shots, and when I remember to practice visual patience I can be rewarded for my efforts.

[tightloop]

The average A shooter who shoots action pistol games cannot make the same shots that an Average shooter of IPSC could make 25 yrs ago...

I remember Z combos at 25 yds, head shots at 22 yds and common 50 + yd shots

You just don't see that anymore...all run and gun and a sea of close targets for those who want to shoot 30 rounds per stage...

[Flexmoney]

The average A shooter who shoots action pistol games cannot make the same shots that an Average shooter of IPSC could make 25 yrs ago...

I remember Z combos at 25 yds, head shots at 22 yds and common 50 + yd shots

You just don't see that anymore...all run and gun and a sea of close targets for those who want to shoot 30 rounds per stage...

Yeah...well...we do that in the snow here in Ohio.

Walking up hill, too.

[tightloop]

That is why you are the Man, Flex....

[Storm]

I think balance is where it's at.

Rather than trying to design "difficult" stages that challenge better shooters or "easy" stages that appeal to those folks who are just there for fun, why not incorporate both aspects in the same COF? I generally like to some difficult shots & some easy shots in the same COF. There's nothing wrong with an occasional no-shoot or "some" hardcover. You just don't need a sea of no-shoots or hardcover on every target with all targets at 20+ yards. Think difficult shots vs. easy shots rather than difficult stages vs. easy stages.

That way even if someone can't hit those two 25 yard mini-poppers, it won't cause them to zero the stage. They're down 30 points. On a 120 point stage, you still end up with a positive score.

To me, the best stages are the ones that are balanced & contain all the elements. Some easy targets and some difficult targets.

If you want to design a truly difficult COF with all difficult shots, make it a low points stage. That way even if you zero it, it's still a small percentage of the match. Again, it's all about balance. Want more balance? Balance it out with a hoser stage that's about the same number of points.

[Ron Ankeny]

I guess I just don't understand why course designers are so caught up in the "difficult shot" syndrome. A shot doesn't need to be long or hard to become difficult, if there is movement involved. I see folks putting wide open targets in freestyle stages where the opportunity is provided to shoot on the move. To make the array more difficult they will add hard cover and/or a no-shoot, or increase the distance. It's the old "that will slow them down" attitude. Why not just add a couple of round plates and give the better shooters an opportunity to shoot them on the move at whatever clip they can handle? The D class shooter can stop, the GM can blast away as they ride by on a fast horse, the B class shooter can take the shot with one of those "stutter steps". If a person will just think about the elements of shooting, it's a simple matter to take a mundane course and make it a whole lot of fun.

[Jake Di Vita]

Right.

The GMs are GMs simply because they fear absolutely no shot anyone can think of to put in a stage.

[JFlowers]

Since in USPSA we normalized scores as a % of the lead dawgs score, I would like to put the following thought on the table ....

Given any set of stages; hard, long, hoser, run and gun, whatever; the distribution of competitors will not change dramatically. The GMs will put on GM performances and the C and D shooters will shoot to the best of their ability, but the end results will be reasonably the same regardless. My score is going to be about xx% of Chris Tilley, Jon Merricks, and Larry Browns regardless of what the stages look like. So the "setup stages to make Group A slow down" in the end accomplishes very little.

Unfortunately, the "slow them down" attitude seems to be widespread among the shooting sports.

[Loves2Shoot]

Right.

The GMs are GMs simply because they fear absolutely no shot anyone can think of to put in a stage.

Why fear a shot?

You can either do it or you can't

GM's just know they can so they take the time they need to make it the first time. Lower class shooters don't take the time they need to make the shoot, so they take lots of them

That being said GM isn't so much about making the shot, it is about the time getting in and out of shooting positions and getting from target to target.

You can make good courses that seperate the men from the boys without overly time consuming targets. Just give people choices and enough of the target to shoot at that newbies get a chance to hit them too

[joecichlid]

I have been setting up stages for about the last 2 years and for me I try and cover all the shooters. Usually I will set up stages that will challenge even the local grandmaster but at the same time be a fun course for a first time shooter. With a lot of IDPA shooters that shoot with our USPSA club I will sometime set up a "tactical" stage that is still fun for the rest of the shooters.

For me, a good stage is one where everyone from GM and A shooters all the way through D shooters curse my name (with a smile) for that No Shoot they tagged at 5 feet and in the next breath thank me for making it fun.

Another thing that helps make the stages fun and challenging is to ask the SHOOTERS what they like and work with that in mind.

Joe W.

[AlamoShooter]

I have been setting up stages for about the last 2 years and for me I try and cover all the shooters. Usually I will set up stages that will challenge even the local grandmaster but at the same time be a fun course for a first time shooter. With a lot of IDPA shooters that shoot with our USPSA club I will sometime set up a "tactical" stage that is still fun for the rest of the shooters.

For me, a good stage is one where everyone from GM and A shooters all the way through D shooters curse my name (with a smile) for that No Shoot they tagged at 5 feet and in the next breath thank me for making it fun.

Another thing that helps make the stages fun and challenging is to ask the SHOOTERS what they like and work with that in mind.

Joe W.

A few kind words go a long way ...don't they? 2years -= thats like 7 in a marage

Edited January 31, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[joecichlid]

AlamoShooter, yes it does.

I have to say I really do enjoy setting up stages and with our club shooting indoors we have a very limited amount of space and angles to play with so it can be a chore at times. I have even submitted some stages for Area 3 in 2006 and hopefully one or two of them will be used.

One of the things I enjoy doing on my stages is offer the same target from several ports or views and see just how many times the shooters will shoot the same target. It makes you think and remember what you have already shot, requiring you to have a plan and REMEMBER it lol

Joe W.

[Dream]

sometimes people are going to complain no matter what..

if your a MD. and you have complaints just offer for that person to

set up a stage at the next match,,, and guess what ..

then will only complain under there breath next time..

some people just want to complain no matter what, but they don't like

the idea of helping... to much work.. there here for fun..

good luck making everyone happy

Edited January 31, 2006 by Dream

[joecichlid]

Dream....

My motto is: If you don't like my stages, here is the sign up sheet.

A lot of the shooters in the club have been members for 15 to 20 years and they are burnt out on setting up stages and they don't mind the newer guys setting up. The one thing that kind of bothers me is that some of the shooters still insist on revolver neutral stages. I try to do it as often as I can but sometimes you just gotta say screw it for a local match and build it the way you want.

So far, in the year and a half or so that I have been setting up I have only had a very small handful of people that didn't care for one of my stages, no so much hate it but just not care one way or another. Last year alone I set up 34 stages plus 4 classifiers and in the confines of an indoor range it gets harder and harder to come up with something original but I do what I can.

Joe W.

[spook]

Good stages are fun and challenging. It's really not that hard to build a stage that way. The best way to achieve it is to give the shooters options. Make the hard shots worth time.

Last match I shot had a 50 yard short course with 1 popper and 4 full turtle targets. Popper had to be engaged from Box A @50yds. Targets 1 to 4 from outside the box. Open shooters and accurate Standard/Production shooters shot the popper, took one little step outside the box and engaged T1-4. Standard shooters with a little less accuracy took the popper from the box and hauled ass to the 25yd charge line. They ended up being about 2 seconds slower.

This is an extreme example, of course.

I also like to see at least one or two hard target(s) in every other stage. For beginning shooters this is a good challenge and they will not hate a 32 round stage with 4 tough shots (especially if they can trade the toughness of the shots for a little extra time). For the guys who are going for the match win, tough shots make good practice for bigger matches and keep the match exciting and challenging.

I also dread matches that consist entirely of tough shots/long distances. But I dread them just as much as matches that require no effort and might as well be shot with your eyes closed. A good match has balanced stages that will be fun for experienced shooters as well as new ones.

Just my 2cts.

[joecichlid]

Spook, very well said.

[Tman33_99]

Our club has a Texas Star that about 1/2 the people think is OK, 1/4 love, and 1/4 despise. A few months ago the star was set up with two no-shoots behind either side with the star at about 10-11 yards. At walkthrough the howling, whaling, and nashing of teeth was unbelievable.

After the match most of those that always had trouble with the star were smiling and laughing about how good they did on that stage. This was mostly newer shooters. Why? Because the no shoots forced them to call their shots and get their hits instead of spraying and praying. Almost everyone did well (only a couple of people picked up more than 1 NS, most did not pick up any). However the point here is, what most considered difficult had the immediate effect of building confidence. These shooters no longer fear the Texaas Star as they once did.

I believe every match needs a challenge. Sometimes it is a small different challenge in every stage. Sometimes it is one stage that in itself is a challenge.

[joecichlid]

If I had access to a Texas Star, I would put a no shoot behind the bottom most plate in front of the post. Now THAT is a test of ones shooting skills. lol

[AZ38super]

We have had many setups with no shoots behind, in front or plates on the Stars. (our range has 3 of them)

At first I hated the Texas Star, but after a bit of learning I don't think twice on em and enjoy shooting them. Some days I can have multiple plates in the air at the same time and other times I can have multiple shots in the air and no plates.

We have all classes of shooters setting up stages so we see lots of variety. Most of our monthly matches would be classified as difficult by others. But as club shooters we have come to expect it. Now I enjoy a good 32 round stage we also have small stages under 12 rounds that can be harder than the big ones.

I shot a 52 round stage once back with my Glock 17 and ten round mags...what a blast it was.

You are never going to make everyone happy...you can only give it your best !

[dirtypool40]

Good stages are fun and challenging. It's really not that hard to build a stage that way. The best way to achieve it is to give the shooters options. Make the hard shots worth time.

Last match I shot had a 50 yard short course with 1 popper and 4 full turtle targets. Popper had to be engaged from Box A @50yds. Targets 1 to 4 from outside the box. Open shooters and accurate Standard/Production shooters shot the popper, took one little step outside the box and engaged T1-4. Standard shooters with a little less accuracy took the popper from the box and hauled ass to the 25yd charge line. They ended up being about 2 seconds slower.

This is an extreme example, of course.

I also like to see at least one or two hard target(s) in every other stage. For beginning shooters this is a good challenge and they will not hate a 32 round stage with 4 tough shots (especially if they can trade the toughness of the shots for a little extra time). For the guys who are going for the match win, tough shots make good practice for bigger matches and keep the match exciting and challenging.

I also dread matches that consist entirely of tough shots/long distances. But I dread them just as much as matches that require no effort and might as well be shot with your eyes closed. A good match has balanced stages that will be fun for experienced shooters as well as new ones.

Just my 2cts.

good stuff as always Spook. Hell, I like shooting matches with an "open flavor" with my Limited gun, there's more to separate folks on stages like that. (OK, sometimes I am the guy separated out and left in the dust , but then at least I know what to work on for next time).

I've made the analogy before and it applies here as well. I see a good set of IPSC stages like a nice golf course; challenging variety that will test your whole game. Sure, neat props (or location in golf) are cool eye candy, but step back and look conceptually at what this hole / stage is testing.

Yes, you can design headaches all day, if that makes you feel tough or hosers to make everyone feel fast, but if you really want to find the best all around shooter, or just test your complete game, you need variety.

[Ron Ankeny]

...challenging variety that will test your whole game.

Amen to that. I love a course of fire that consists of enough variety to test a multitude of skills. As for all this nonsense about long shots, I find it amusing that some people feel the ability to hit something like an 8 inch plate at 50 yards has much to do with the classification on your card.

[Flexmoney]

(For the local club matches)

[broken record mode]My usual response if to "know YOUR customers". Then design around the core, keeping it challenging for them, but not beyond their skill sets. If a MD tries to "get" the Masters and GM's, they will likely be putting the hurt on the D and C class shooters. A good MD can lead his/her shooters along the path of improvement, through stage design. [/brm]

Another thing stage designers ought to do is a post match analysis. Just take a look at the score sheets for the stage and see how bad the time/penalties get. If many of the shooters are tanking hard, then that is a clue that the stage is too rough for your customers.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Flexmoney

[Ron Ankeny]

If a MD tries to "get" the Masters and GM's, they will likely be putting the hurt on the D and C class shooters.

The net result is simply widening the gap between the GM/M shooters and the rest of the pack. I would embrace a fifty yard standards course with open arms because I can use all the stage points I can get.