Is this a legal stage?

[GrumpyOne]

I always thought that in order to compel a shooter to use ports, one must put up walls, barricades, etc., and that just writing it into the WSB that "All targets must be shot through a port" was a cop out, and possibly not legal, as it eliminates freestyle from USPSA. What say you?

[sperman]

Some might point to 1.1.5.1 as a L1 exemption (I almost did.) But this exemption is limited short and medium courses. Being 26 rounds, this is a long course, and as such, not eligible for the L1 exemption.

Having said that, I've setup stages at clubs with limited props. Sometimes it's hard to accomplish what you want as a stage designer when you don't have much equipment to work with. I've been known to make an X out of caution tape between two barricades and declare that to be a wall.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

[Sarge]

I always thought that in order to compel a shooter to use ports, one must put up walls, barricades, etc., and that just writing it into the WSB that "All targets must be shot through a port" was a cop out, and possibly not legal, as it eliminates freestyle from USPSA. What say you?

You are correct.

[EEH]

I saw one,with three barrels on their side with the end cut out,four targets behind each,,wsb-shoot in any order Thur ports,24 rounds,,fun but not legal--no one grumbled--

[ChuckS]

Some might point to 1.1.5.1 as a L1 exemption (I almost did.) But this exemption is limited short and medium courses. Being 26 rounds, this is a long course, and as such, not eligible for the L1 exemption.

Having said that, I've setup stages at clubs with limited props. Sometimes it's hard to accomplish what you want as a stage designer when you don't have much equipment to work with. I've been known to make an X out of caution tape between two barricades and declare that to be a wall.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

I got stepped on for this a while back. Somewhere here there is a thread on 1.1.5.1. The "not in a long course" only applies to mandatory reloads and not the L1 exemption.

Or, that's what multiple people told me.

Later,

Chuck

[Tim/GA]

Some might point to 1.1.5.1 as a L1 exemption (I almost did.) But this exemption is limited short and medium courses. Being 26 rounds, this is a long course, and as such, not eligible for the L1 exemption.

Having said that, I've setup stages at clubs with limited props. Sometimes it's hard to accomplish what you want as a stage designer when you don't have much equipment to work with. I've been known to make an X out of caution tape between two barricades and declare that to be a wall.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

That is my reading of it due to the comma but would like to see it reworded either way. Part of it is logical in that it is the long courses that local clubs have problems with due to number of props and/or time to set up and tear down at some clubs (like mine- set up morning of and be done shooting and torn down by 1:30 so gun club can open for members). Not so much the problem with short and medium courses as far as props go. Either way, I try to limit myself to not doing it even at level 1, but it does limit my course design from time to time by not using the exemption.

I got stepped on for this a while back. Somewhere here there is a thread on 1.1.5.1. The "not in a long course" only applies to mandatory reloads and not the L1 exemption.

Or, that's what multiple people told me.

Later,

Chuck

[sperman]

Maybe this will clear things up. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69796

If you don't want to read the thread, an NROI instructor said this "Same sentence. None of those are allowed in long courses."

I'll take George Jones word over that of someone who may not even be an RO.

[ChuckS]

Maybe this will clear things up. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69796

If you don't want to read the thread, an NROI instructor said this "Same sentence. None of those are allowed in long courses."

I'll take George Jones word over that of someone who may not even be an RO.

It looks like I have been re-stepped on. I'll go with George also...

Later,

Chuck

[sperman]

I wish I'd found that post last year when it came up in the other thread.

Unfortunately the search engine ignores periods, so searching for 1.5.1.1 returns results for 1511.

[GrumpyOne]

George cut right to the chase, didn't he!

[Jim Norman]

As George knows, I'll argue a lot of points, this one included.

I believe that the simple language means positions from which to engage is OK in L1 matches and that the second phrase refers to mandating a reload and that can only be done in Short and Medium courses.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

Each phrase stands alone in its meaning. The second phrase read this way: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course)." has no effect and does not modify the first phrase: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged"

The second phrase does not modify the first.

[Jim Norman]

As George knows, I'll argue a lot of points, this one included.

I believe that the simple language means positions from which to engage is OK in L1 matches and that the second phrase refers to mandating a reload and that can only be done in Short and Medium courses.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

Each phrase stands alone in its meaning. The second phrase read this way: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course)." has no effect and does not modify the first phrase: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged"

The second phrase does not modify the first.

[Jim Norman]

As George knows, I'll argue a lot of points, this one included.

I believe that the simple language means positions from which to engage is OK in L1 matches and that the second phrase refers to mandating a reload and that can only be done in Short and Medium courses.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

Each phrase stands alone in its meaning. The second phrase read this way: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course)." has no effect and does not modify the first phrase: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged"

The second phrase does not modify the first. If they wanted to say that you cannot use boxes or specify ports in a Long course they might have phrased it better, maybe along the lines of the following:

"1.1.5.1 In Short and Medium courses only, Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads."

[Tim/GA]

Maybe this will clear things up. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69796

If you don't want to read the thread, an NROI instructor said this "Same sentence. None of those are allowed in long courses."

I'll take George Jones word over that of someone who may not even be an RO.

Thanks for the link, it was before my start in the sport (and of course before I was here at the forums) and I could not get an applicable one to come up in the searches I tried after you mentioned the previous post. Yes, I am an RO- newly minted this year so still learning the more intricate rules. I am also (still not sure how it happened the MD for the local match so I try to keep up on the these rule discussions- at least until they end up being 5 pages and longer! That is also why I try to never need the Level 1 exemptions (well, other than the 32 rounds on a rare mini-monster occasion), besides also making for better courses of fire.

I do still take exception to the wording of the rule and am guessing an English teacher would back me about it, but since I am a Mathematics teacher and former soldier (neither necessarily known as English prof. material) I will have to put it to one of them later.

Not to drag it out, but something like

Level I matches may use shooting boxes, specify where/when specific target arrays may be engaged and specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

In this case the and is separating individual actions within a list, rather than appearing to be a conjunction combining sentences.

edit: Looks like Jim was posting as I was

Edited June 4, 2012 by Tim/GA

[Poppa Bear]

I agree with Jim:

2.3.1.1 In lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, a

Range Master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in

order to maintain competitive equity.

a. Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit

competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe

condition or to prohibit exploit of an unintended course loophole

in order to circumvent a course requirement and/or gain

unfair competitive advantage.

b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a

means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a

course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the corner”

on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in

Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit

competitor movement must do so using target placement,

vision barriers and/or physical barriers.

1.1.5.1 is recognized as an exemption for level I matches where the club is short of time or materials to build a bullet proof stage. Saying that this is only valid for short and medium courses is backwards. It is easy to set up a short or medium course without a lot of props and in a short time period. It is the long courses that take the time and materials to set up. With the time and materials you can set up ALL the necessary walls to restrict or compel the shooters movement. Something not always available for a level I match, hence the level I exemption.

[sperman]

It looks like we've got another rule that needs to be clarified in the publishing of the next rulebook.

[Tim/GA]

It looks like we've got another rule that needs to be clarified in the publishing of the next rulebook.

I know that they posted and now have the "old" rule book with the changes from 2010, is USPSA looking at a full look at the rule book? I thought I had heard something about it, but nothing for sure.

[Steven Cline]

Illegal stage, and I'm not the "Steven" who designed the stage...

The conditional in the parentheses applies to the entire sentence, like George (and my RMI) have said.

[sperman]

So a member of the NROI instructor corps has told you the proper way to interpret and apply the rule, but you chose to ignore him?

No wonder those guys don't participate in the forum anymore.

[Poppa Bear]

It would be easier if some of the rules were explained as to the reasoning behind the ruling. Having had a day to think about this I can see a possible explanation for this to be valid only for short and medium courses. The long course usually needs more material to be set up properly, AND it generally has multiple areas for target engagement. This can make it difficult for the RO to enforce all of the restrictions needed on a long course. A short course and medium course generally do not have as much movement, so it is easier for the RO to enforce WSB restrictions. If the club has limited props or time they can use what they have to set up the longer and more complex course, and save time and materials on the short and medium courses by using the WSB to create the restrictions. Thoughts?

[ErichF]

Well, at least everyone had fun shooting it

When some folks offer to build more props and help setup, then they can play rulebook lawyer all day long while the rest of us have fun shooting through illegal ports

Edited June 5, 2012 by ErichF

[GrumpyOne]

What rule is there for playing "Range Lawyer"? Rule X.X.XX "Unless you help build props and set up the match, you cannot contest the legality of the stages presented to you."

The question was never if everyone had fun or not. The question was "Is this a legal stage?".

I'm not saying that the stage wasn't fun, and I'm sure no one else would either. Hell, just being out there shooting is fun. What I am saying is that we have a rule book to follow.

At what point does it stop being a USPSA match, and just a fun shoot with a classifier thrown in? Two illegal stages? Three? We cannot pick and choose what rules we want to follow, and which rules we choose to ignore.

A guy goes into the doctor's office. When he see's the Doc, he tells him "Hey Doc, my arm hurts when I bend it this way." The Doc looks at him for a second and replies "Well, don't bend it that way."

If you don't have the props to set up the stage the way you want it, and be legal, then the stage needs to be re-designed in such a manner as to comply with the rules with what props you have...

http://www.k8nd.com/stage.htm

http://www.bhpsc.us/files/Download/New%20Shooter%20Class%20USPSA.pdf

Both of the above links have a wealth of information in them for course design.

[ErichF]

If it was so blatantly illegal, how come you are the only one that mentioned it? Note that there is not a consensus here, either. Why didn't you contest the WSB during the walk-through? Obviously you didn't think it was so obvious and shot the stage as written. Stop the hyperbole, obviously we don't intend to build illegal stages, and do the best we can with what we got.

[GrumpyOne]

If it was so blatantly illegal, how come you are the only one that mentioned it? Note that there is not a consensus here, either. Why didn't you contest the WSB during the walk-through? Obviously you didn't think it was so obvious and shot the stage as written. Stop the hyperbole, obviously we don't intend to build illegal stages, and do the best we can with what we got.

Perhaps I'm the only one who mentioned it that you have heard of....

Perhaps I pay too much attention to detail....

Perhaps I think the rules are there for a reason....

Perhaps I did mention it to the RO and SO who were running the stage....

Perhaps I was told "Well, this is only a level 1 match, so it doesn't really matter."

By the time I got to the stage, an entire squad had already shot it. To change anything about the setup would have required that squad to re-shoot that stage, causing even more time to be spent there, and backing up the squads even more, or just tossing the stage out entirely.

Remember, this was not a slam at the course designers, or the set up guys (but you seem to be taking it as such), but more as constructive criticism, and clarification of rules by consensus of the many shooters here.

BTW, I took the pic of the WSB during the brief before the match, before I had even seen the course on the range.

You say you that they don't intend to build illegal stages, but the previous post, you flaunt the fact that it was done, and criticize those who point it out. By your own admission it was illegal....

"Well, at least everyone had fun shooting it

When some folks offer to build more props and help setup, then they can play rulebook lawyer all day long while the rest of us have fun shooting through illegal ports."

I still think you guys do a fabulous job setting everything up with the limited resources available, and every match is great time...

Edited June 6, 2012 by GrumpyOne

[Steven Cline]

In a rare bout of pure intellectual argument with no value inherant....

If it was so blatantly illegal, how come you are the only one that mentioned it?

That you know of. And, blatant or note, it is illegal and he rightfully observed the same.

Note that there is not a consensus here, either.

You write that as it mattered. Whether a bunch of persons can't agree doesn't decide that the stage is legal or not. The rules do and when persons incorrectly read the rules- advice from the RMI and ultimately the DNROI. At this point in time two RMI's have opined the the proper application of rule says the stage is illegal.

Why didn't you contest the WSB during the walk-through? Obviously you didn't think it was so obvious and shot the stage as written.

From the looks of it, because it wouldn't have matters to the match staff. It appears he would have been blown off as "that guy." So, why should he bother if he would be ignored and possibly mocked.

Stop the hyperbole, obviously we don't intend to build illegal stages, and do the best we can with what we got.

Great, he can expect better next time.

From the looks of it you two were at the same match. He questioned here on the legality of the stage. The stage isn't legal. No reason to take that as a personal attack. Don't take it as personal. Just make a legal stage next time.