davidwiz Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Not sure if this is the right place, if not pls move. I was RO'ing a fairly new IPSC'er (I'll call him JoeyPants). Gun handling skills were still being developed - meaning had to yell out "muzzle" and "finger" a few times, but no saftey infractions. The guy's gun was malfunctioning left and right, multiple times on each stage. That's just background. Anyway, during the course of the match, another competitor (I'll call him Waldo) in our squad, while he was in spectator mode, would invade my space as an RO while I RO'ing the newer shooter. At the starting position, he would stand a foot or two behind me and hover. I asked him several times, very politely, to move back. At the completion of the COF, but during the unload/show clear bit, Waldo would run up and either stand right behind, or next to me and proceed to ask JoeyPants a variation of, "what happened, what ammo are you using, which magazine that is on the ground was the one in the gun when it malfunctioned, etc." Again I had to several times politely as him to step back. Waldo is an experienced IPSC'er, but doesn't shoot that much anymore, not a certified RO, and meant well in trying to help JoeyPants. With the level of gun handling evidenced by JoeyPants, I was nervous as it was, but having to deal with Waldo made it worse. How would you have handled the situation and what could I have done differently? -David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I'll assume this is a club level match, right? I'd tell him to sit with the rest of the spectators until range is clear. I'd do it loudly so all could hear. In other words, embarass him once and I bet he'll behave. If he doesn't get the hint then pull him to the side and tell him that this new shooter doesn't need all that "help" while trying to clear and holster. Or, let him RO and sit back and watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Well, if he didn't heed the requests to stay back I would remind him of 10.4.2 and let him know that he could be facing a Match DQ for unsportsman like behavior. Harsh, perhaps but you have to be able to do your job. He can coach all he wants after the shooter has left the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I would warn him in private first (about how he is impeding you-yet encourage his helping the new shooter at the appropriate time), and then if it persists, issue a match DQ...He is afterall, keeping you from doing your job, which is to keep everybody safe. Public embaressment only causes resentment, and in my opinion should not be used. If it persists, trust me, the match DQ will be public enough on the stats results. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 A match DQ for unsportsman like conduct at a club level match? Are you high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I thought the topic was about actual spectators ... that would be a much tougher situation to handle. If it's a competitor, just tell them to stay back until the "range is clear" command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I HIGHly doubt it would result in a DQ situation. The mere mention of such a thing should be enough to back him off. It is a catch-all that shouldn't be used unless there is repeated contravention of the rules. I hope this clarifies. As for being high...well, let's keep the comments civil. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 David, finish with the shooter under your control. After the stage is scored, hand the timer off to someone else and have a polite conversation with Waldo. If that doesn't produce the desired effect, have a conversation with the match director --- that's what we're there for. By all means try to solve any problems encountered by polite conversation first, but if that isn't producing the desired result --- let someone else have a crack at it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 David, I generally agree with Nik's advice above except that the correct person to contact is the Range Master who, under Rule 7.1.5, has ultimate authority over "all persons". Basically, once the first shot has been fired at a match, the MD is "out of the loop" when it comes to actual stage management. Of course it's possible that at a smaller match, the MD and RM might be one and the same person (as permitted by Point 4 of Appendix A1) but, in such cases, the RO seeks advice from "Johnny Two Hats" as RM. And given that you describe Waldo as being "a spectator", Waldo has absolutely no right to be in "no man's land" between the other competitors and the guy on the line, and an RO would be well within his rights refusing to process the subject competitor until Waldo moved away as requested. If polite (then strong), requests failed to get Waldo to back up, then explusion from the range under Rule 10.6.2 would indeed be justified as a last resort. The last thing we need is for an RO to be constantly distracted by a spectator, regardless of how well-meaning he may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 A match DQ for unsportsman like conduct at a club level match? Are you high? No, I'm not and I'm not a range nazi either. But, Waldo (a competitor - read the first sentance of the second paragraph) is interfering with the RO including during the Unload, Show Clear). The rules are the same for club level matches as they are for higher levels of competition. They are that way to protect the safety of all involved and to provide an equal oportunity for all of the competitors. If Waldo wants to coach a new shooter that is fine - just do it after the shooter has left the COF so as not to interfere with the RO in the performance of his resonsibilities.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I"ll just echo Nik and Vince: have a polite but firm talk with him, and if that doesn't settle it, call the RM. By all means, though, get him out from under your feet. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 18, 2004 Author Share Posted July 18, 2004 Thank you for your comments. To clarify, when I said that Waldo was a spectator, meaning, that he wasn't presently shooting, but he was shooting the match (club level) in the squad that I was in. -David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 David- Your opening post was very clear as to Waldo's role in the mess. Pull him aside and politely ask him to stay clear of the COF. If he does it again, then give Waldo a DQ stating that you have warned him once and now it's time to go. Are you high? It's just a figure of speach. Not a request for a blood test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I guess even at club level match rule 8.7.5 8.7.5 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master. Violators will incur a warning for the first offense but may be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6 for subsequent offenses. would cover this situation adequately. Of course, at club match level, I'd have a private discussion with said Waldo in first place, then for subsequent violations I'd invoke rule 8.7.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Could someone point me toward the "club level" rule book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Are you high? It's just a figure of speach. Not a request for a blood test. I see my humor was not lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 At local (read club level) matches we don't officially appoint a range master. The MD acts as the "de facto" RM, hence my advice to contact the MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Get the next shooter on deck and ready to go, send the guy down range after the start signal, have everyone in the squad contribute to digging the 6-foot-deep hole. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 At local (read club level) matches we don't officially appoint a range master. The MD acts as the "de facto" RM, hence my advice to contact the MD. Nik A minor technical point - Match organizers must officially appoint someone to act in the capacity of RM because there are a number of rules that specifically require a decision by the RM. Appendix A1 Item 04 states that a Range Master (actual or designated) is mandatory at ALL match levels. However, the Rules Committee was mindful of the difficulties and practicalities at smaller matches and so made a provision for this as below. Rule 7.3.1 was added to the 2004 rules: 7.3.1 Match organizers must, prior to commencement of a match, appoint a Match Director and a Range Master to carry out the duties detailed in these rules. The nominated Range Master should preferably be the most competent and experienced certified Range Official present (also see Rule 7.1.5). For Level I and II matches a single person may be appointed to be both the Match Director and the Range Master. The current practice you describe of the MD acting as RM is perfectly acceptable under the 2004 rules but I thought it might be interesting to add to this thread the actual rules that deal with it. Please note that the MD is not always going to be "the most competent and experienced certified Range Official present ". The MD doesn't even need to be qualified as an RO (it is better if they are qualified, IMHO) and this is why over the past few years more and more match rule decision making has shifted solely to the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Neil, Thanks for the heads up. Hmmmm, guess Keith and I will have to fight over who's appointed range master. Oddly enough, we rarely have to make rules decisions at our matches ---- we must know how to play nicely together.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Hmmmm, guess Keith and I will have to fight over who's appointed range master. Nik: Have you seen Rule 12.7: Paper, Rock, Scissors ?? Neil: Thanks for quoting the relevant rule, which I failed to do in my earlier post. Bad Vinny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 A little update - I talked to another RO the other day about Waldo, and he said that the same thing has happened to him numerous times - that while he is RO'ing, Waldo (as a spectator) will be underfoot and in the way. And to make matters worse, Waldo is a certified RO. Thanks everyone for your suggestions. -David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now