Poppa Bear Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 At less than 5 yards do you need the front sight perfectly notched into the rear sight with the sights being perfectly level? No, as long as you are seeing the front sight inside the rear sight you will get your hits. At 25 yards do you need the sights perfectly aligned and level? Yep, and with practice it might take 1/4 to 1/2 second longer to ensure they are aligned. It is all a matter of how well they need to be aligned at various distances, but at all distances you still need to see them if you want to guarantee your hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theycallmeingot Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 At less than 5 yards do you need the front sight perfectly notched into the rear sight with the sights being perfectly level? No, as long as you are seeing the front sight inside the rear sight you will get your hits. At 25 yards do you need the sights perfectly aligned and level? Yep, and with practice it might take 1/4 to 1/2 second longer to ensure they are aligned. It is all a matter of how well they need to be aligned at various distances, but at all distances you still need to see them if you want to guarantee your hits. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I found I shot consistently better if I got on the front sight, even for very close targets. It also felt that kept my mind calmer and more grounded, or less panicky. be Right on! The sights give the best feedback on the shooting. Using them, we get to KNOW what is going on...better. Knowing is awesome. Don't you win Majors without sights on your gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Yes, KNOWING is where it's at. In shooting and in everything. (Thinking's got nothing to do with knowing.) Knowing "occurs" moment to moment, and is perception dependent. Find out: Where is the best place to put your attention, for each aspect of everything you do, that allows spontaneous knowing to drive the action. (Funny timing on you dropping the Knowing Bomb Kyle. After a focused set of yogercise (made that one up), I just got back from a thinking break on the porch, where the only topic was how knowing operates in various realms. Shooting and typing mostly.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernYeti Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I am always finding my front sight no matter where the target is, but depending on how far out or difficult the target is my focus will change. For very close targets (<3yd) I will pull the trigger the instant my front sight comes into view in the rear sight. I don't look for perfect sight alignment or a clear front sight. I have a soft focus on the front sight and my mental focus is taking in more of the big picture rather than just tracking the front sight. The farther out/more difficult the shot is the more focused I become on my sights, how they are aligned, how I am manipulating the trigger, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) I found I shot consistently better if I got on the front sight, even for very close targets. It also felt that kept my mind calmer and more grounded, or less panicky. be I was just talking to a friend about your prospective on this- as you've mentioned it before. I've lost too many points on 5 yards targets than I care to remember for not looking. I hope I've learned. Edited May 23, 2012 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Yes, KNOWING is where it's at. In shooting and in everything. (Thinking's got nothing to do with knowing.) Knowing "occurs" moment to moment, and is perception dependent. Find out: Where is the best place to put your attention, for each aspect of everything you do, that allows spontaneous knowing to drive the action. (Funny timing on you dropping the Knowing Bomb Kyle. After a focused set of yogercise (made that one up), I just got back from a thinking break on the porch, where the only topic was how knowing operates in various realms. Shooting and typing mostly.) So it's the front post for shooting... Is it the cursor for typing-- where the letters are appearing as you stroke the keys? I ask because I do the latter naturally, and can hopefully decide why I'm not so consistent with the former... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I found I shot consistently better if I got on the front sight, even for very close targets. It also felt that kept my mind calmer and more grounded, or less panicky. be Right on! The sights give the best feedback on the shooting. Using them, we get to KNOW what is going on...better. Knowing is awesome. Don't you win Majors without sights on your gun? No Majors. A few local matches. We do have other senses we can use, to varying degrees. And, we can trust a bit in our work to build a good and consistent index, grip, stance, etc. Ultimately, our bodies crave feedback (if we can get out of our own way with regards to expectations). We can get feedback in a variety of ways. The best feedback comes from our vision. We trust it the most and use it the most. The best visual feedback comes from the sights. Shooting matches without sights on my gun lets me know how much of a difference the sights really can make. To add to this (and kinda carry on with what Brian shared)... It's not just our sights we need to see. We need to locate...to KNOW...where other things are as well. We do this pretty well with vision. If I want to drive the gun to a target, I want to pick a clearly defined SPOT on that target to drive the gun to. Not brown, not vague...clear. Once I located that SPOT, I know where the gun needs to go. My body can then make the adjustments it needs to make to achieve the clear and known goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkwatch Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 I found I shot consistently better if I got on the front sight, even for very close targets. It also felt that kept my mind calmer and more grounded, or less panicky. be Right on! The sights give the best feedback on the shooting. Using them, we get to KNOW what is going on...better. Knowing is awesome. Don't you win Majors without sights on your gun? No Majors. A few local matches. We do have other senses we can use, to varying degrees. And, we can trust a bit in our work to build a good and consistent index, grip, stance, etc. Ultimately, our bodies crave feedback (if we can get out of our own way with regards to expectations). We can get feedback in a variety of ways. The best feedback comes from our vision. We trust it the most and use it the most. The best visual feedback comes from the sights. Shooting matches without sights on my gun lets me know how much of a difference the sights really can make. To add to this (and kinda carry on with what Brian shared)... It's not just our sights we need to see. We need to locate...to KNOW...where other things are as well. We do this pretty well with vision. If I want to drive the gun to a target, I want to pick a clearly defined SPOT on that target to drive the gun to. Not brown, not vague...clear. Once I located that SPOT, I know where the gun needs to go. My body can then make the adjustments it needs to make to achieve the clear and known goal. Thumbs up for Winning without sights. What is your next challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I found I shot consistently better if I got on the front sight, even for very close targets. It also felt that kept my mind calmer and more grounded, or less panicky. be Right on! The sights give the best feedback on the shooting. Using them, we get to KNOW what is going on...better. Knowing is awesome. Don't you win Majors without sights on your gun? No Majors. A few local matches. We do have other senses we can use, to varying degrees. And, we can trust a bit in our work to build a good and consistent index, grip, stance, etc. Ultimately, our bodies crave feedback (if we can get out of our own way with regards to expectations). We can get feedback in a variety of ways. The best feedback comes from our vision. We trust it the most and use it the most. The best visual feedback comes from the sights. Shooting matches without sights on my gun lets me know how much of a difference the sights really can make. To add to this (and kinda carry on with what Brian shared)... It's not just our sights we need to see. We need to locate...to KNOW...where other things are as well. We do this pretty well with vision. If I want to drive the gun to a target, I want to pick a clearly defined SPOT on that target to drive the gun to. Not brown, not vague...clear. Once I located that SPOT, I know where the gun needs to go. My body can then make the adjustments it needs to make to achieve the clear and known goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Good stuff, Flex. Were you getting feedback from the targets-- i.e. spotting the holes, as I assume you were using 100% target focus (with some awareness of the muzzle's orientation in your periphery, perhaps)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Good stuff, Flex. Were you getting feedback from the targets-- i.e. spotting the holes, as I assume you were using 100% target focus (with some awareness of the muzzle's orientation in your periphery, perhaps)? No, not looking for holes. That is about the last form of feedback that I'd seek. When I am shooting well, it's not really about the target...more about execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Good stuff, Flex. Were you getting feedback from the targets-- i.e. spotting the holes, as I assume you were using 100% target focus (with some awareness of the muzzle's orientation in your periphery, perhaps)? No, not looking for holes. That is about the last form of feedback that I'd seek. When I am shooting well, it's not really about the target...more about execution. Even with no sights? I'm curious to know where your feedback was coming from... More like dying to know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theycallmeingot Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Good stuff, Flex. Were you getting feedback from the targets-- i.e. spotting the holes, as I assume you were using 100% target focus (with some awareness of the muzzle's orientation in your periphery, perhaps)? No, not looking for holes. That is about the last form of feedback that I'd seek. When I am shooting well, it's not really about the target...more about execution. this sounds so vague and over my head that it could have come out of beyond fundamentals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Good stuff, Flex. Were you getting feedback from the targets-- i.e. spotting the holes, as I assume you were using 100% target focus (with some awareness of the muzzle's orientation in your periphery, perhaps)? No, not looking for holes. That is about the last form of feedback that I'd seek. When I am shooting well, it's not really about the target...more about execution. this sounds so vague and over my head that it could have come out of beyond fundamentals. Execute the Fundamentals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleA Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Good stuff, Flex. Were you getting feedback from the targets-- i.e. spotting the holes, as I assume you were using 100% target focus (with some awareness of the muzzle's orientation in your periphery, perhaps)? No, not looking for holes. That is about the last form of feedback that I'd seek. When I am shooting well, it's not really about the target...more about execution. Even with no sights? I'm curious to know where your feedback was coming from... More like dying to know... I would thing that as angular as a glock is, you could know reasonably close where the shot will land by just looking at the slide. I used to shoot turtles in a pond at 50 yards or so when I was a kid by looking down the side of my grandfathers pellet gun because the pellet drop was so great the the sights were useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleA Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I found I shot consistently better if I got on the front sight, even for very close targets. It also felt that kept my mind calmer and more grounded, or less panicky. be Right on! The sights give the best feedback on the shooting. Using them, we get to KNOW what is going on...better. Knowing is awesome. Don't you win Majors without sights on your gun? No Majors. A few local matches. We do have other senses we can use, to varying degrees. And, we can trust a bit in our work to build a good and consistent index, grip, stance, etc. Ultimately, our bodies crave feedback (if we can get out of our own way with regards to expectations). We can get feedback in a variety of ways. The best feedback comes from our vision. We trust it the most and use it the most. The best visual feedback comes from the sights. Shooting matches without sights on my gun lets me know how much of a difference the sights really can make. To add to this (and kinda carry on with what Brian shared)... It's not just our sights we need to see. We need to locate...to KNOW...where other things are as well. We do this pretty well with vision. If I want to drive the gun to a target, I want to pick a clearly defined SPOT on that target to drive the gun to. Not brown, not vague...clear. Once I located that SPOT, I know where the gun needs to go. My body can then make the adjustments it needs to make to achieve the clear and known goal. On the target spot... Lately I have been really thinking about this in terms of finding the spot and it being in focus, or it just being identified. Because of the way my brain works I see relationships between shapes, angles, and lines. I can identify where I want to hit on an open target by just looking at the shape around the head area. In my mind I see the equivalent shape of the head if it were made into a point from where it connects at the shoulders to the top of the head and then folded down. This points right at the middle of the top 1/3rd of the lower A zone. The target doesn't have to be in focus for me to see this , all I need is the silhouette. I haven't really nurtured this very much in fear of it being wrong or causing bad habits I'd have to undo later, but it seems worth looking into. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 On the target spot... Lately I have been really thinking about this in terms of finding the spot and it being in focus, or it just being identified. Because of the way my brain works I see relationships between shapes, angles, and lines. I can identify where I want to hit on an open target by just looking at the shape around the head area. In my mind I see the equivalent shape of the head if it were made into a point from where it connects at the shoulders to the top of the head and then folded down. This points right at the middle of the top 1/3rd of the lower A zone. The target doesn't have to be in focus for me to see this , all I need is the silhouette. I haven't really nurtured this very much in fear of it being wrong or causing bad habits I'd have to undo later, but it seems worth looking into. Thoughts? I like it. Make finding the center of each target, in that way that works for you - before your sights get to each target - a main priority in your shooting life. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I would thing that as angular as a glock is, you could know reasonably close where the shot will land by just looking at the slide. I used to shoot turtles in a pond at 50 yards or so when I was a kid by looking down the side of my grandfathers pellet gun because the pellet drop was so great the the sights were useless. I thought he was running a 1911 when he shot with no sights? May have been someone else... At any rate, that makes sense. The rear leaf rusted off of my Red Rider several years before I stopped shooting it consistently. Maybe 10 years after I put it aside, I came home from college and my dad had dug it out of storage; I plinked around the yard for about 5 or 10 minutes and remembered my POA/POI relationship like it was an old friend. He jokingly asked me to shoot some avocados out of the tree in our side yard for my sisters, who were coming into town that evening. 3 shots, 3 stems, 3 avocados. He was dumbfounded. I also took a lightbulb out of a covered housing @ 30 yards or so, at night, when probably less than 1/4" was exposed to the shot-- and there was obviously some minimal drop at that range. It remains the best shot I've ever made, with anything, in my entire life-- and I did it for $20, on my 2nd of 3 allowed tries! I must have sent 200k+ BBs down range with that thing, and did nothing but point shoot with it. It's hard to remember vividly, but looking back, I seem to recall using the front post as something of an indicator, but never with a crystal clear focus-- especially since there was no rear sight to work with throughout most of its life. I can totally see doing the same thing with the top surface of the gun itself, or the very tip of the muzzle still in your focal plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 It was those pellets and BB's of my youth that really got the fundamentals down for me. It also cemented my life-long pursuit of shooting sports. I guess it was the experimentation of hitting something. Trying something until it worked. Rejoycing with every hit and not getting wrapped around all the misses. Why then, when we are older and more serious, do we forget those days of being intimate with a pellet gun and being able to hit anything? If I could only shoot my pistol like I could my Sheridan Silver Streak... I'd have ten times more fun shooting and do a lot better. There might be some value in taking the Silver Streak mindset to shooting. DNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Good points, DNH. We can console ourselves in knowing that a handgun is much harder shoot than a long gun of any kind. Something else I thought of while reading your post-- the trigger on that old Red Rider wasn't awful, but certainly was garbage compared to the stuff we run in our guns today. Indian and not the Arrow, right? (Or I guess in my guess with the BB gun... Cowboy...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 I shot Can You Count (CM 06-03), which is four targets and two strings. Two targets at two yards, offset left and right, angled to the shooter, with no-shoots on the outside; two targets at 10 feet, offset left and right, square to the shooter. Five shots on one target on either side, mandatory reload, five shots on the other target on same side as the first for each string. My first string was 4.97, no points down. My second string was 4.75, no points down. (Note, I've been practicing my draw and had a pretty fast draw on the second string. I vaguely remember the reloads, but guess they were reasonably fast.) I don't remember seeing my sights for any of the four targets, but I had a general awareness of where the front sight was when I shot. Now I'm just trying to figure out how to make my trigger finger work faster so my splits go down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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