Help with USPSA rules in these situations, please

[Sharyn]

I'm still fairly new to USPSA and at a recent match I was confused on some of the SOs calls. Clarification of the situations encountered would be greatly appreciated!

Situation #1: Steel popper placed in front of a no-shoot. Shot clearly hits the steel and puts it down. Bullet fragment (?) leaves a large, elongated hole in the no-shoot.

• Call: No-shoot penalty, -10.
  

Situation #2: Stage begins with loaded gun on top of towel on top of table. Wind blows the towel over the gun prior to "Shooter Ready?" Shooter carefully puts the towel back in it's place without handling the gun.

• Call: "I should DQ you for that but I'll let it slide this time."
  

Situation #3: Shoot six, reload, shoot six. Virginia count. Shooter shoots four, reloads, shoots six.

• Call: Two mikes only.
  

Situation #4: Field course, shooter outruns the SO, finishes the course (maybe?) and the SO runs into the back of the shooter.

• Call: None and no reshoot mentioned.
  

Situation #5: Shooter makes three center mass hits on steel pepper popper with major .40 loads and it goes down on the fourth hit.

• Call: No reshoot. "Some steel targets are tricky and you need to hit them just right." Calibration is mentioned and the SO responds with "You should have stopped shooting and asked then."
  

Thanks!

[Lee Dimaculangan]

hey sharyn - i think i can clear up a couple of those situations... lets see

situation 1:: if theres a clear hole in the no-shoot... it needs to be a FULL DIAMETER circle to count as a no-shoot, ive had that situation before, and its contestable. if its on the perf... then has to be a clear round/semi-circle hole - if not, definitely ricochet hit

situation 2:: haha thats retarded - it can happen - no dq

situation 3:: im not so sure on this one, definitely the 2 mikes at least... but i don't know if theres penalties

situation 4:: shooter can ask for a reshoot - reason being, RO interrupted him during the course of fire.

situation 5:: if the shooter decides to finish the stage - i don't think the RO can stop him, but if the shooter knows for a fact that he's shot that steel 3x in the center, stop and tell the RO... because I'm sure by the 4th shot, that steel will fall. if the shooter decided to finish teh stage anyway - he can ask for the calibration. if it falls he's screwed.

hope this helps a little - but please someone correct me if im wrong on any of em- if not all

cyaa

[davidwiz]

Have a look at the 14th Edition Rule book http://www.uspsa.org/rules/Rules14_2001.pdf

Situation 1: Only bullet diameters are scored, Rule 9.5 et al; Radial tears are not scored, Rule 9.5.7

Situation 2: When the shooter removed the towel from the gun, did any part of his/her body move in front of the muzzle? If no, then no saftey violation. If yes, then DQ per Rule 10.3.7

Situation 3: The Rule book really doesn't deal with the situation when a compeitor fires less than the required number of rounds. Rule 10.1.4.3 might come in to play as it deals w/ failing to follow the course description, but uses the example of using the weak hand to open a door when the description says to use only the strong hand; At the very least 2 misses per Rule 9.4.4.2 The situation doesn't say how many targets were to be engaged during each string, only the total number of rounds. Assuming that each target was engaged w/ at least one round, then I would asses only the 2 misses.

Situation 4: Rule 8.6.3 Seems that a reshoot is in order as there was "inadvertent physical contact." RO has to offer the reshoot to the competitor *before* the competitor looks at his/her hits or the time and the competitor can accept or decline the reshoot.

Situation 5: If the steel is knocked down by a competitor during a course of fire, it can not be challenged by the shooter for calibration. Appendix C

-David

[kimel]

Egad...clearly the RO(s) at this match need to attend or re-attend Level I RO training. Paging Drs. Worden, McManus, Amidon, et al....

Situation #1: No penalty unless it is obvious that a shot hit the no-shoot first and it wasn't just a ricochet off the popper. An RO that has his/her collective stuff together will pay attention and notice if multiple shots were dispatched at the popper. If one shot was fired and the popper went down then the hole in the no shoot is a ricochet. Ricochets are generally easy to tell from "real" hits and your description of the hole is rather conclusive evidence that it was not a "real" hit.

Situation #2: No potential DQ there unless the course description says "wait for the wind to blow the towel over the pistol...." and even then it is a procedural....maybe. If "shooter ready" has not been given then you are still "loading and making ready" which specifically calls for handling your pistol. Sheesh.

Situation #3: You don't say how many targets so this is harder to call. There could be FTE (failure to engage) penalties in here. There is also the possibility of a procedural or two depending on how the course description was written. There are 2 mikes...but there may be other things as well.

Situation #4: RO interference. Reshoot. The COF doesn't end until after the shooter is cleared, the pistol holstered/bagged and the "range is clear" command is given. So, the RO running into the shooter equals interference.

Situation #5: Uhhh...there is no place in my rulebook where it talks about "some steel targets can be tricky" as being allowed. If others also had problems with this target then 4.5.2 might be called into play. The "fair" thing to do at a local match would be to check calibration of the popper and if it fails then recalibrate the sucker and reshoot everyone that had problems with it (or just throw out the stage). It seems obvious that this popper was not properly calibrated (nor checked beforehand).

David is right though...the rules say if you knock it down then you can't bitch. Like I said...the "fair" thing to do....

If these incidents are rampant at that club then go find some place else to shoot. Sounds like you might be getting frustrated at that club and they obviously are oblivious (or ignoring) the rules. That isn't a good way to get started in this sport.

Hope that helps.

Edited July 17, 2004 by kimel

[Sharyn]

Wow! Thanks for the responses so soon! Lee, WHERE THE HECK WERE YOU!!! You could have cleared all of this up... sheesh.

ok, I just wanted to post the situations and calls before the details (in hopes I wouldn't make it more confusing.) I figured y'all are smart enough to ask the right/necessary questions to come to a proper conclusion.

#1. One shot per steel. I was the shooter. My bullet hit was very clear (black polka dot) on the white steel. There was no question in my mind that hit on the no-shoot was ricochet. I threw a tantrum and got the penalty removed, but honestly I wasn't sure of the rule.

#2. I thought this was ridiculous too. The shooter is a very experienced, sponsored, IDPA Master... just new to USPSA. His gun handling is unquestionably safe. I felt this was more of an unnecessary threat from the RO than a true DQ situation.

#3. This was a classifier stage. I don't know the 99- number. 6 shots to one target at 50 yards freestyle. 6 shots at one target kneeling. 6 shots at one target prone, reload, six shots on the same target. If the call is only two mikes... when I shot the stage I should have just fired two, reload, one... I could have zeroed the stage MUCH faster and saved 7 rounds.

#4. I thought this was an automatic reshoot too, that the RO should have offered... not waited for the shooter to request it. This was the same "new to USPSA" IDPA Master who was shooting. He's not familiar with the rules yet... neither am I... and neither were most of the other shooters in that squad.

#5. Another BS call and BS handling of the situation, IMHO. Again... most of us being unfamiliar with the rules couldn't argue this one legitimately. So, in a situation where you hit the steel and it doesn't go down... just move on with the stage and call for the calibration after you shoot? You cannot ask for a calibration after you finally knock it down? There were other shooters that had trouble with that steel. IMHO, a good RO would have either stopped the shooter or simply offered a reshoot. It was OBVIOUS that there were problems. I feel the RO took advantage of the "newbie-ness" of our squad. We're all decent shooters, just not familiar with all the rules yet.

To be quite honest, this RO made the match unpleasant and I was actually downright irritated. I was very annoyed that we constantly had to argue with his calls. I thought the calls were to benefit the shooter, not make the shooting experience miserable. This was only the second time I'd shot this club. I don't think it's the club, I think it was a few bad apples.

oops! "RO" not "SO"... this isn't IDPA.

[Liota]

Sniper,

#1. One shot per steel. I was the shooter. My bullet hit was very clear (black polka dot) on the white steel. There was no question in my mind that hit on the no-shoot was ricochet. I threw a tantrum and got the penalty removed, but honestly I wasn't sure of the rule.

----No penalty per 9.5.7 as you hit the popper. It is deemed inpenetrable. Presumably there was no clear evidence of a bullet strike on the penalty target.

#2. I thought this was ridiculous too. The shooter is a very experienced, sponsored, IDPA Master... just new to USPSA. His gun handling is unquestionably safe. I felt this was more of an unnecessary threat from the RO than a true DQ situation.

----No DQ unless, per 10.3.7 "Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e., sweeping) other than while drawing or re-holstering." If he allowed his hand to come in front of the muzzle of the loaded handgun while it was on the table, it happened during the course of fire as described in 8.3.1, which says that the LAMR signifies the start of "the course of fire." As a result, the competitor should have been DQ'ed.

#3. This was a classifier stage. I don't know the 99- number. 6 shots to one target at 50 yards freestyle. 6 shots at one target kneeling. 6 shots at one target prone, reload, six shots on the same target. If the call is only two mikes... when I shot the stage I should have just fired two, reload, one... I could have zeroed the stage MUCH faster and saved 7 rounds.

----The classifier in question is CM 99-9 "Long Range Standards". The competitor should have received the two misses and one procedural for not following the stage procedure per 10.1.1 & 10.1.4.3. The stage description clearly says "engage only T3 with six rounds only, then perform a mandatory reload and from behind the fault line engage only T3 with six rounds only while prone or supine."

#4. I thought this was an automatic reshoot too, that the RO should have offered... not waited for the shooter to request it. This was the same "new to USPSA" IDPA Master who was shooting. He's not familiar with the rules yet... neither am I... and neither were most of the other shooters in that squad.

----8.6.3 "In the case where there is inadvertant physical contact between the Range Officer and the competitor, the Range Officer MAY offer to allow the competitor to re-shoot the course of fire. The competitor must make this decision prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt."

#5. Another BS call and BS handling of the situation, IMHO. Again... most of us being unfamiliar with the rules couldn't argue this one legitimately. So, in a situation where you hit the steel and it doesn't go down... just move on with the stage and call for the calibration after you shoot? You cannot ask for a calibration after you finally knock it down? There were other shooters that had trouble with that steel. IMHO, a good RO would have either stopped the shooter or simply offered a reshoot. It was OBVIOUS that there were problems. I feel the RO took advantage of the "newbie-ness" of our squad. We're all decent shooters, just not familiar with all the rules yet.

----Calibration is handled in Appendix C. Three things can happen. The competitor can shoot the popper until it falls, no further action, stage is scored as it stands. The competitor can not shoot at the popper further, no further action, stage is scored as it stands. Third, the competitor can not shoot at the popper and request callibration. If the popper does not fall with the calibration shot, the competitor shall re-shoot the stage after the popper is adjusted and recalibrated. If it falls with the first calibration shot, the stage is scored as it stands. *Note, I did not quote the whole rule.

Sniper, All of this does not excuse the rudeness of your RO's. It sounds like they need remedial training from NROI for the rules and from their parents for politeness. It also sounds like your new club needs better Squad Mommies. Most clubs will put new shooters, either to the game or shooting, with more experienced players. These folks should be helping you with the rules, how to play, and more importantly, helping you to have a good time while being safe.

v/r,

Liota

[Vince Pinto]

Sharyn,

First and foremost, a warm welcome to the IPSC/USPSA Section of the BE Forums and to the USPSA. And, wow, that's a big gun in your photo but, hey, I see you're from Texas, which automatically makes you an Honorary Australian Anyway, my comments:

#1. There was no question in my mind that hit on the no-shoot was ricochet.

Noted, but it depends on what the RO thinks. However since the penalty call was reversed, it seems the RO agreed, so this point is moot.

#2I felt this was more of an unnecessary threat from the RO than a true DQ situation.

I agree the comment was unnecessary (and incorrect), but I advise you in future to point out the problem to the RO, rather than correcting it yourself.

#3This was a classifier stage. I don't know the 99- number.

Without knowing the classifier number or the penalties stated therein, it's impossible to comment but you might also be subject to a Procedural Penalty for "failing to comply with the written stage briefing".

#4 I thought this was an automatic reshoot too, that the RO should have offered... not waited for the shooter to request it.

(January 2004) Rule 8.6.3 would apply, but the operative word is "may". Hence it's a judgement call for the RO, but it would be courteous (after the "Range Clear" declaration), to quietly ask the competitor had he finished before the collision, and to respond accordingly.

#5 You cannot ask for a calibration after you finally knock it down?

No, Ma'am. You either stop and challenge it or you keep shooting until it goes down. There's no 3rd choice.

I thought the calls were to benefit the shooter, not make the shooting experience miserable.

No and Yes. It's "No" because all calls are supposed be accurate, and neither fear nor favour comes into the equation. It's "Yes" because a call which goes against the competitor should be handled with regret and compassion by the RO.

Hope this helps.

[mactiger]

#1.  One shot per steel.  I was the shooter.  My bullet hit was very clear (black polka dot) on the white steel.  There was no question in my mind that hit on the no-shoot was ricochet.  I threw a tantrum and got the penalty removed, but honestly I wasn't sure of the rule.

TM:  As others have stated, this should not have been called a hit on the NS.  Ricochets and spatter don't count.

#2.  I thought this was ridiculous too.  The shooter is a very experienced, sponsored, IDPA Master... just new to USPSA.  His gun handling is unquestionably safe.  I felt this was more of an unnecessary threat from the RO than a true DQ situation.

TM:  Again, unless the competitor got himself in front of the muzzle, not a problem.

#3.  This was a classifier stage.  I don't know the 99- number.  6 shots to one target at 50 yards freestyle.  6 shots at one target kneeling.  6 shots at one target prone, reload, six shots on the same target.  If the call is only two mikes...  when I shot the stage I should have just fired two, reload, one...  I could have zeroed the stage MUCH faster and saved 7 rounds. 

TM:  Two misses only.  No FTE or procedurals.

#4.  I thought this was an automatic reshoot too, that the RO should have offered... not waited for the shooter to request it.    This was the same "new to USPSA" IDPA Master who was shooting.  He's not familiar with the rules yet... neither am I... and neither were most of the other shooters in that squad.

TM:  The RO should have offered a reshoot based on "inadvertent contact".  I can only imagine what happened here, but it sounds bizarre.

#5.  Another BS call and BS handling of the situation, IMHO.  Again... most of us being unfamiliar with the rules couldn't argue this one legitimately.  So, in a situation where you hit the steel and it doesn't go down... just move on with the stage and call for the calibration after you shoot?  You cannot ask for a calibration after you finally knock it down?  There were other shooters that had trouble with that steel.  IMHO, a good RO would have either stopped the shooter or simply offered a reshoot.  It was OBVIOUS that there were problems.  I feel the RO took advantage of the "newbie-ness" of our squad.  We're all decent shooters, just not familiar with all the rules yet.

TM:  As others stated, once the popper is down, it can't be calibrated.  However, it sounds like there were some problems with this steel that an RO who was "on the ball" would have noted and addressed before they got bigger.

To be quite honest, this RO made the match unpleasant and I was actually downright irritated.  I was very annoyed that we constantly had to argue with his calls.  I thought the calls were to benefit the shooter, not make the shooting experience miserable.  This was only the second time I'd shot this club.  I don't think it's the club, I think it was a few bad apples.

TM:  I'd like to know who this guy was, if you want to PM me or email me the details.  If you don't, I understand.  We work hard to eliminate this sort of behavior.

oops!  "RO" not "SO"... this isn't IDPA. 

Not a problem--we all knew what you meant. 

Sorry to hear that your experience was so bad...But welcome, and thanks for posting!

Troy

[BDH]

Not much to add, but I do have a couple of minor clarifications to make....

Situation #2: No potential DQ there unless the course description says "wait for the wind to blow the towel over the pistol...." and even then it is a procedural....maybe.  If "shooter ready" has not been given then you are still "loading and making ready" which specifically calls for handling your pistol.  Sheesh.

"Shooter Ready" I am sure that you meant to say something more like "Are You Ready?" correct???

Situation #4: RO interference.  Reshoot.  The COF doesn't end until after the shooter is cleared, the pistol holstered/bagged and the "range is clear" command is given.  So, the RO running into the shooter equals interference.

Actually, the COF does NOT end with the "Range is Clear" command.

USPSA 14th edition 8.3.7 "Gun Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" This command is given after the Range Officer is satisfied that the handgun is unloaded and safe for further action. The competitor shall, holster the handgun in the one of the safe conditions below. Completion of the holster portion of this command signifies the end of the course of fire.

IPSC January 2004 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitors's hands are clear of the holstered hangun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.

To be quite honest, this RO made the match unpleasant and I was actually downright irritated. I was very annoyed that we constantly had to argue with his calls. I thought the calls were to benefit the shooter, not make the shooting experience miserable. This was only the second time I'd shot this club. I don't think it's the club, I think it was a few bad apples.

Wow!! That is a pretty strong statement. Sorry to hear that some of this goes on out there, but I can assure you that this behavior will be the exception, not the rule. Anyway, welcome to USPSA, and to the BE forums.

[Lee Dimaculangan]

haha sorry sharyn - which club match(es) did these occur in? I haven't shot much of late, but I'll definitely get back in the groove of things starting this tuesday - gotta practice

[Sharyn]

Awesome! Thanks everyone!!!

This match wasn't the best USPSA experience I've had so far, but it certainly isn't going to deter me from the game.

These folks should be helping you with the rules, how to play, and more importantly, helping you to have a good time while being safe.

This was one of my points... and this is what I meant by "the calls benefitting the shooter." Not that all calls are in favor of the shooter, but to benefit the shooter. (i.e. penalties are earned not given.)

Situations #2-5 have been addressed sufficiently, and thank you very much! Situation #1 however...

QUOTE (Sniper @ Jul 18 2004, 07:16 AM)

#1. There was no question in my mind that hit on the no-shoot was ricochet.

Noted, but it depends on what the RO thinks. However since the penalty call was reversed, it seems the RO agreed, so this point is moot.

I don't think it's really moot because I still wanted to know the rules. The RO actually didn't reverse the call. I challenged his initial call and asked if 'splatter' hitting a no-shoot incurs a penalty. He looked at the scorekeeper and said, "You handle this one." He didn't really say anything either but the general consesus was sorta "don't give her the penalty." So I never got my question answered.

However,... in the case that the RO "thinks" it's a hit and calls it as such, can I request the timer be reviewed for shot count? The stage was 24 rounds. I shot 24 rounds. All steel was down and all paper had two hits. ?????

BDH, thanks! LOL!!! I'm learnin'...

Lee, I'm going to try to make ASC on Tuesday. I'll talk to you more about it then, k? It was just one match and like I said, I don't think it's the club, I think it's a few bad apples. I think I figured who the person was and it may be someone Jeff warned me about...

GAH! I was doing good at that match too... holding my ground amongst the Ms, As and Bs... until I zeroed the standards. Helps to know where your dot is zeroed, eh? And that daggum last stage I shot in 5.some seconds... the second time.

[mactiger]

QUOTE (Sniper @ Jul 18 2004, 07:16 AM)

#1. There was no question in my mind that hit on the no-shoot was ricochet.

However,... in the case that the RO "thinks" it's a hit and calls it as such, can I request the timer be reviewed for shot count? The stage was 24 rounds. I shot 24 rounds. All steel was down and all paper had two hits. ?????

One thing you can do is ask the RO to put an overlay on the suspect hit and see if he can find a radius, or partial bullet diameter, which would indicate to me that at least a part of the actual bullet hit the penalty target. If I'm scoring targets, I'll use my overlay to look for a radius. If I can't find it, I don't call it. That's pretty much what the rules covering "partial bullet diameters" mean.

But, almost any RO should be able to tell the difference between splatter and bullet holes.

Glad to hear that this won't put you off IPSC shooting.

Troy

[ErikW]

"I should DQ you for that but I'll let it slide this time."

The correct response is, "I should demand the Range Master remove you for that and have a competent RO run me but I'll let it slide this time."

Unless what Troy said.

[Dead Buff]

I can add anything constructive - its all been said. Don't let a "bad" RO take away the fun you have in this game. Get to know the rules and stick to them.

Big gun, small cat......Texan = Aussi??? This is scary!

[JFD]

I'm glad to hear all these problems came from a single RO. That would be a match to avoid if it happened with several ROs.

I have to say that I have never seen a bad RO in USPSA. There are so many trained and experienced ROs and "range lawyers" on the squads that it would be pretty hard to make a bad call without having 5+ people laugh you off the range. ROs who aren't sure about a call have plenty of help available.

Now I've seen plenty of bad SOs in IDPA, and locally speaking it seems like the doofus SO is more of a local joke than a source of concern for the MD. In the rare times I shoot IDPA, what squad I'm on directly relates to who is the SO. If the SO is also a USPSA RO, then I'll jump on that squad in a heartbeat. This is a local observation, not a blanket statement that IDPA SOs suck. I hope they are better everywhere else.

You can be sure that an RO such as you describe is not a common attribute of USPSA.

[uscbigdawg]

1 - That's a garbage call. The RO should be paying attention to the shooter and the steel, not yield to the end result.

can I request the timer be reviewed for shot count?

Actually no. The timer is to be used to record time, not record shots. It is the RO's job to pay attention to how the stage was engaged. This is how we can assess FTE penalties if a competitor is firing through a port where the RO/CRO cannot see the targets. If there are 8 shots to engage a particular 'blind array' and the competitor only fires six, even though you can't see the targets, you can still assess an FTE if a target has two misses, there is a logical conclusion that it wasn't engaged. This is a random example, but hope it makes the point that the RO needs to pay attention to what's going on with the firearm in front of him.

2 - Whatever. If you addressed it before the "standby" command, you're fine. If after at the most, you'd get is a 'creeping' procedural. The RO should have stopped everything and reset the stage.

3 - One could argue one procedural for failing to follow the course description. However, as there's no advantage gained, I would have given you the misses and called it good.

4 - If you were finished, no re-shoot. If you weren't done, then definitely a reshoot.

5 - Unfortunately, that's correct. You should have stopped probably on the second shot, finished the stage and called for a calibration.

Rich

[Nik Habicht]

If there are 8 shots to engage a particular 'blind array' and the competitor only fires six, even though you can't see the targets, you can still assess an FTE if a target has two misses, there is a logical conclusion that it wasn't engaged.

Rich,

Faulty logic. If I fire eight times through that port and have two hits each on T1-T2, and four hits on T3, are you gonna tell me that I failed to engage T4? If I had lost all my magazines on the run, I might be tempted to engage targets with one round each to mitigate the number of penalties called, i.e. 1 miss is better than two and a FTE....

[dv8]

Situation #5 just happened to me twice at the Area 8. I now know what the rule says, and I certainly don't blame the CRO for following it. My question is whether the rule is fair. Does anyone feel that this rule should be changed?

Here is what happened: Area 8 stage 6 - there are 6 PPs close together, one of them activates a swinger. Three PPs in front row and three behind them. My PF was just above 142 - shooting Production. At the moment I hit #4 I see that it didn't move. I heard the sound and I am almost sure that I hit this one - almost absolutely positevly completely almost sure. But unless I take my attention off the front sight and actually look at the popper, hence loosing even more time, I can't tell. So I hit it again, and then once again to finally make it go. And then I need to do an unplanned reload to complete the stage. I think I lost around 2-2.5 seconds on this.

Next shooter has the same problem but he is aware of it, so he hits that PP only once, then stops and calls for calibration. The RM hits it with the same effect and then recalibrates the PP. The shooter gets a reshoot. No problem for the rest of the squad. I feel - wouldn't you?

Now, what were my options? Even if I knew the rule before that stage, I would still have to take a risk to slow down just to (possibly) find out that I hit a wrong PP or hit the right one but too low, or keep shooting trying to get the best I can out of this mess. If I convinced myself while shooting that it is a REF, there was a chance I was wrong, so am taking risk any way I go. I feel I did not get a fair chance at that stage, and there is nobody to blame, but the rule.

Then exactly the same thing happens again a few stages later. I do know the rule by then, but the follow up shot goes off a lot sooner than I can think "It's a REF". I don't even bother to point the problem to the CRO - I know the answer.

Anyone else feels the rule concerning this situation could use an amendment?

Vince ???

[mactiger]

Situation #5 just happened to me twice at the Area 8. I now know what the rule says, and I certainly don't blame the CRO for following it. My question is whether the rule is fair. Does anyone feel that this rule should be changed?

Here is what happened: Area 8 stage 6 - there are 6 PPs close together, one of them activates a swinger. Three PPs in front row and three behind them. My PF was just above 142 - shooting Production. At the moment I hit #4 I see that it didn't move. I heard the sound and I am almost sure that I hit this one - almost absolutely positevly completely almost sure. But unless I take my attention off the front sight and actually look at the popper, hence loosing even more time, I can't tell. So I hit it again, and then once again to finally make it go. And then I need to do an unplanned reload to complete the stage. I think I lost around 2-2.5 seconds on this.

Next shooter has the same problem but he is aware of it, so he hits that PP only once, then stops and calls for calibration. The RM hits it with the same effect and then recalibrates the PP. The shooter gets a reshoot. No problem for the rest of the squad. I feel - wouldn't you?

Now, what were my options? Even if I knew the rule before that stage, I would still have to take a risk to slow down just to (possibly) find out that I hit a wrong PP or hit the right one but too low, or keep shooting trying to get the best I can out of this mess. If I convinced myself while shooting that it is a REF, there was a chance I was wrong, so am taking risk any way I go. I feel I did not get a fair chance at that stage, and there is nobody to blame, but the rule.

Then exactly the same thing happens again a few stages later. I do know the rule by then, but the follow up shot goes off a lot sooner than I can think "It's a REF". I don't even bother to point the problem to the CRO - I know the answer.

Anyone else feels the rule concerning this situation could use an amendment?

Vince ???

Here's the reasoning behind the "you knock it down, you bought it" rule:

I'm sure you know the 3 options you have if you hit a popper and don't knock it down, right? 1--shoot it again and knock it down, it counts. 2--don't shoot it again, and don't challenge the calibration, it's a miss. 3--don't shoot it again and challenge the calibration.

The key is the calibration challenge. Say you hit it, it doesn't fall, you call for calibration. The RM comes over. The first thing he's supposed to do is check it for mechanical problems (rocks, broken parts, etc.) NOBODY is supposed to touch it before he gets there, and he isn't supposed to move it, either. If no mechanical problems are found, then he shoots it. If it goes down, you get a miss. If it stays up, it gets adjusted and you get a reshoot. If someone besides you moves it, you get a reshoot--because it can't then be checked or calibrated, since it's moved from it's position. But, if you shoot it down, there is no chance to see if there was a mechanical problem (could have been a rock or something caught up), so once it's down, it's assumed to be in calibration, and you did, after all, earn the hit.

The short version: interference with the process earns a reshoot, as long as it's not the shooter physically moving the popper. If the popper falls when you shoot it, then you get the hit, even if you shot it 6 times, because you shot it down, and it can't be properly checked.

Now, having said all that, a good RO will be watching his poppers and checking/adjusting them periodically to maintain their calibration. He'll also notice if one is getting "heavy" and have it checked, which is what should have happened in Sniper's case (see, I brought this back on topic) , but unfortunately didn't.

I know you feel hosed when it happens, but the best advice I can give is to not shoot it down and challenge the calibration. Sometimes if it's obviously way too heavy, the RO will stop you--that's an automatic reshoot.

HTH,

Troy

[davidwiz]

Once the steel is knocked down, it is impossible to reset it exactly as it was when it was shot at, hence the rule that if you knocked it down, you own it and can not challege it's calibration. This is laid out explicitly under Appendix C for both the IPSC and USPSA rules

Your Options: 1) If you shoot at a piece of steel within the circle, and it didn't go down, continue the COF. Then, after the COF has ended, ask for a calibration. 2) The problem with stopping if the steel doesn't fall and asking for the calibration then is, what happens if the steel goes down with the calibration gun? You might end up with a lot of FTEs and misses. 3) Keep shooting at the steel until it goes down.

If you think that a piece of steel is not set properly or calibrated before the start of the COF, I would ask the RM or his calibrating designate to check the calibration of the steel. Appendix C of the 14th Edition, on page 83, provides:

US Calibration of IPSC Poppers

The calibration procedure for both the mini-popper and popper is as follows:

...In cases where proper calibration is brought into question, visually inspect the popper for obstructions that may have prevented proper operation....

(goes on to detail the steps to do to correct the problem). The IPSC (non-US) rules provide for a similar situation on page 82.

-David

[Nik Habicht]

Something to keep in mind though with poppers that activate a moving target --- if the popper falls for calibration, not only do you eat the miss on the popper, but you also eat the miss and FTE penalties on the to be activated targets.....

If it's a single popper that doesn't activate anything and you're sure you hit it square, leave it. If you're not absolutely sure, or if it's an activating popper, shoot it down....

[mactiger]

David brings up a good point--if you don't think a piece of steel is calibrated properly, you can always ask to have it checked before you shoot it.

Troy

[uscbigdawg]

If I fire eight times through that port and have two hits each on T1-T2, and four hits on T3, are you gonna tell me that I failed to engage T4?

Nik - Hate to sound like a hard ass but yes. [by the book] If I counted 8 shots fired through a blind port and when scoring I see 2 on T1, 2 on T2 and 4 on T3, you're getting 2 misses and 1 FTE. I can account for all your shots by the hits on the paper.

Now, if you fired 8 and there are 2 hits on T1, T2 and T3, I'll just give the two misses.

Now, all that being said, if I was your RO, IN MOST CASES, I wouldn't give the FTE. You're already down 20, I'm not going to smack you with another 10.

Rich

[Nik Habicht]

Rich,

I'm pretty sure I'd win that one at arbitration --- especially if the targets were closely packed in the port.....

OTOH, if I knew I'd blown by a target, I'd insist on the FTE too.....

[dv8]

While I can see the reasoning behind the rule and agree that it covers a lot of different possibilities, I still don't see why a shooter shouldn't be able to call for calibration even if he managed to knock the PP down. Why the PP in question can't be reset (as is) and shot with appropriate PF. If it falls, the shooter keeps the score, if it doesn't - it's a REF and a reshoot is granted. The way I see it, there is no way this shooter will get an unfair advantage. Actually, the following shooters will benefit too because the PP will be recalibrated.

In my case at the stage 6, everyone including the CRO and his assistants agreed that the PP didn't work properly, but even the next shooter couldn't call for calibration without actually shooting a stage with an obvious REF there.

I think I understand the rule, and it seems to need some work.

Just my .02.