38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Hmmm to take the math a step further, should we put time limits on the execution of the stage? You could apply the same math to a D class shooter taking 30 seconds to shoot a stage that I, as an M class, take 10 seconds (ironically the D class shooter probably took 10 sec to LAMR and I took 30...) Is it fair to everyone that the D class shooter took so much more time to shoot the stage? Surely this slows down the match the same amount as a long LAMR, something must be done, if it only saves one minute!.... P.S. I couldn't find the Sacastica font so I used Comic sans, close enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 P.S. I couldn't find the Sacastica font so I used Comic sans, close enough? It's hard enough to understand your Canadian accent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 P.S. I couldn't find the Sacastica font so I used Comic sans, close enough? It's hard enough to understand your Canadian accent. What the hell are you talking aboot, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 What the hell are you talking aboot, eh? <<< Canadian refresher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 That's SCTV, which in Canada is like your PBS, an educational channel. It is broadcast in schools and open places like malls (like a large igloo where Canadians congregate) so we can learn aboot our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Unsportsmenlike conduct? As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly. Awwww, am I going to have to get Phil to review your RO status?...lol Hmmm to take the math a step further, should we put time limits on the execution of the stage? You could apply the same math to a D class shooter taking 30 seconds to shoot a stage that I, as an M class, take 10 seconds (ironically the D class shooter probably took 10 sec to LAMR and I took 30...) Is it fair to everyone that the D class shooter took so much more time to shoot the stage? Surely this slows down the match the same amount as a long LAMR, something must be done, if it only saves one minute!.... P.S. I couldn't find the Sacastica font so I used Comic sans, close enough? Not a problem, I'm not an IPSC RO Most of the matches I run (or have run) are IDPA (not an issue), or multigun. And, as far as I know, par times are common for MG matches. Maybe this doesn't apply so well to IPSC/USPSA, but seriously, how long does it take to MR? You guys have mentioned (which I believe) that not every shooter does this....but what if they did? Let's not forget here that these individuals are taking extra time at MR in addition to the 5 mins or so usually given for competitors to 'go through the stage' Edited May 8, 2012 by Onagoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Unsportsmenlike conduct? As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly. Awwww, am I going to have to get Phil to review your RO status?...lol Hmmm to take the math a step further, should we put time limits on the execution of the stage? You could apply the same math to a D class shooter taking 30 seconds to shoot a stage that I, as an M class, take 10 seconds (ironically the D class shooter probably took 10 sec to LAMR and I took 30...) Is it fair to everyone that the D class shooter took so much more time to shoot the stage? Surely this slows down the match the same amount as a long LAMR, something must be done, if it only saves one minute!.... P.S. I couldn't find the Sacastica font so I used Comic sans, close enough? Not a problem, I'm not an IPSC RO Most of the matches I run (or have run) are IDPA (not an issue), or multigun. And, as far as I know, par times are common for MG matches. Maybe this doesn't apply so well to IPSC/USPSA, but seriously, how long does it take to MR? You guys have mentioned (which I believe) that not every shooter does this....but what if they did? Let's not forget here that these individuals are taking extra time at MR in addition to the 5 mins or so usually given for competitors to 'go through the stage' They might shoot better and therefore reduce the time they are shooting the stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Unsportsmenlike conduct? As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly. Awwww, am I going to have to get Phil to review your RO status?...lol Hmmm to take the math a step further, should we put time limits on the execution of the stage? You could apply the same math to a D class shooter taking 30 seconds to shoot a stage that I, as an M class, take 10 seconds (ironically the D class shooter probably took 10 sec to LAMR and I took 30...) Is it fair to everyone that the D class shooter took so much more time to shoot the stage? Surely this slows down the match the same amount as a long LAMR, something must be done, if it only saves one minute!.... P.S. I couldn't find the Sacastica font so I used Comic sans, close enough? Not a problem, I'm not an IPSC RO Most of the matches I run (or have run) are IDPA (not an issue), or multigun. And, as far as I know, par times are common for MG matches. Maybe this doesn't apply so well to IPSC/USPSA, but seriously, how long does it take to MR? You guys have mentioned (which I believe) that not every shooter does this....but what if they did? Let's not forget here that these individuals are taking extra time at MR in addition to the 5 mins or so usually given for competitors to 'go through the stage' They might shoot better and therefore reduce the time they are shooting the stage... I should think the marginal return on the initial investment of time is zero if the MR procedure takes anymore than 10s or so.....from a match efficiency point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 You guys have mentioned (which I believe) that not every shooter does this....but what if they did? I've run a multitude of major matches, and worked a number more. It just ins't an issue on running the mach. What it is is a pet peeve that some folks have. I can tell you some things that are an issue. For instance... I ran a stage at an area match, where there was a gun on the table start....then the shooter started away from the gun and was lying on a bench. That setup cost me 30 seconds per shooter. And, it was a big field course that took a bit to score and reset (meaning it was hard to make up time). Plus, many of the props and target holders on the stage were unique. When they broke, they need different spare parts to fix them. That works out to an extra hour a day. That does matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 But seriously though, am I the only one who thinks that dedicating this amount of time to MR is ridiculous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 But seriously though, am I the only one who thinks that dedicating this amount of time to MR is ridiculous? Nope. It just doesn't impact the match. Somebody might think your hat is ridiculous. That doesn't impact the match either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Just out of curiousity.....if a shooter was called to the line, needed an extra 60-90 seconds or so to finish loading his mags, and then took 5 seconds to make ready, would the ROs have the same opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Somebody might think your hat is ridiculous. That doesn't impact the match either. I lol'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Just out of curiousity.....if a shooter was called to the line, needed an extra 60-90 seconds or so to finish loading his mags, and then took 5 seconds to make ready, would the ROs have the same opinion? What does it matter? We can build straw-man arguments until the cows come home. It just isn't a real factor in running the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Just out of curiousity.....if a shooter was called to the line, needed an extra 60-90 seconds or so to finish loading his mags, and then took 5 seconds to make ready, would the ROs have the same opinion? Yup, I'd wait for him/her. As McFlexy pointed out the other option is to go to the next shooter who wasn't expecting to shoot and is probably not ready at all. He wasn't on deck so he didn't get his last look at the stage while the others patched, if it was me who was next up because of a situation like this I would either decline and say not ready or ask for a couple of minutes to have my last look at the stage that I would have been afforded if I was on deck. The match has to be run in such a way as it is fair to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Its not a straw man argument. Both points have to do with delaying a match. While it might not have an effect in your experience, it does in mine. It probably has more to do with how you run a match, but if you've lined up 10-15 shooters to shoot four stages and have different shooters coming in every 2 hours, it bogs things down. Taking too long between shooters, no one reseting targets, excessively long MR procedures will significantly delay a squad...and once you get behind, it only gets worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Let's say the shooter has a 3 minute routine at MR. After a minute you tell him to unload and show clear, which burns another 30 seconds. Now the next competitor isn't quite ready to go, so you lose another minute while he gets his head together. After his run, we go back to shooter 1, who starts his 3 minute routine again. After another minute, you tell him to UL&SC again, which he does. Now you find out he is the last shooter on the squad, so you guys spend 5 minutes arguing over how long it should take to prepare for running the stage. Wouldn't it be easier to just give him his 3 minutes? Doing anything else is almost guaranteed to take longer. In the process, you are pissing off a customer, and possibly other shooters on the squad who think you are some sort of range nazi. Just let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Recently I watched one of the top shooters prepare to shoot a stage. Even though the stage was completely reset and the ROs ready they preceded to do another full walk through of the stage. The make ready command was given and then shooter proceeded to do 3+ practice draws... A couple practice shoots (draw and engage the first visible targets...in this case 4)... They finally loaded their gun and holstered... Then air gunned the entire stage again from the start... Practiced the start position to gun maneuver a couple more times and then finally allowed the RO to give the are you ready command (RO had already tried twice). Are there any rules pertaining to this? IMHO this seems unfair as it seems unlikely the ROs would be as patient if the shooter had not been famous... An unknown 'C' class shooter should get the same opportunities as a famous GM.... That's insane! 1 draw and sight picture and that's it, from 95% of shooters I see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 As I pointed out before, in IPSC matches up here we have trouble putting the smaller number of shooters through a match in 5 days than in the US would be put through in 3 days. And thats in spite of the fact that we have a more restrictive LAMR rule set. The proof that it doesn't help to restrict the LAMR is already there, we need to look elsewhere to figure out what is taking so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I don't host huge matches by any means, but keeping them running smoothly is always a challenge. An unneccesarily long MR routine is the same as not helping to patch and reset targets. it only slows the match down. I don't think the two are equivalent. Resetting the stage, barring a problem -- scoring dispute, something broke -- should always be fairly consistent, timewise.... Everything that comes before the reset is subject to variables. What is the difference between a D-class shooter with a 15 second MR routine, who takes 60 seconds to shoot the stage, and a Master with a 45 second MR routine, who takes 18 seconds to shoot the same stage? The Master's going to have the faster clearance time; should we be telling the D class shooter to hurry up in the middle of the run? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Having said that, if this happened in an outlaw match where I am the MD, I'd be punting him from the starting box and telling him to come back when he's ready. The problem with that is...is kinda screws over the next guy/gal that is up. Especially if they are doing good by knocking out much of their pre-run routine in their head while they are "on-deck" for 3-minute shooter turn. Not to mention that you've now compounded the problem -- you've wasted a minute or so of "getting ready," additional time to clear the gun, and have the conversation, and to have the next shooter suddenly be ready earlier than anticipated.... Then add in the fact that at some point the original competitor will need to come back to start all over -- and you really think that this is faster? I don't think the math holds up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 There is entertainment value to some of these routines that do have a place.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Unsportsmenlike conduct? As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly. Awwww, am I going to have to get Phil to review your RO status?...lol Hmmm to take the math a step further, should we put time limits on the execution of the stage? You could apply the same math to a D class shooter taking 30 seconds to shoot a stage that I, as an M class, take 10 seconds (ironically the D class shooter probably took 10 sec to LAMR and I took 30...) Is it fair to everyone that the D class shooter took so much more time to shoot the stage? Surely this slows down the match the same amount as a long LAMR, something must be done, if it only saves one minute!.... P.S. I couldn't find the Sacastica font so I used Comic sans, close enough? Not a problem, I'm not an IPSC RO Most of the matches I run (or have run) are IDPA (not an issue), or multigun. And, as far as I know, par times are common for MG matches. Maybe this doesn't apply so well to IPSC/USPSA, but seriously, how long does it take to MR? You guys have mentioned (which I believe) that not every shooter does this....but what if they did? Let's not forget here that these individuals are taking extra time at MR in addition to the 5 mins or so usually given for competitors to 'go through the stage' Multi-gun par times usually apply once the buzzer goes off, not once the shooter is called to the line.... I know I have differently timed routines depending on factors like stage complexity, local or major, how tired I am, how much I care in that moment..... Something like El Pres, which I've shot a few dozen times, I'm very quick on, as that program is pretty much loaded permanently into memory.... Give me a complex and tricky field course in an Area match, and I might need a few seconds to run the program again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Having said that, if this happened in an outlaw match where I am the MD, I'd be punting him from the starting box and telling him to come back when he's ready. The problem with that is...is kinda screws over the next guy/gal that is up. Especially if they are doing good by knocking out much of their pre-run routine in their head while they are "on-deck" for 3-minute shooter turn. Not to mention that you've now compounded the problem -- you've wasted a minute or so of "getting ready," additional time to clear the gun, and have the conversation, and to have the next shooter suddenly be ready earlier than anticipated.... Then add in the fact that at some point the original competitor will need to come back to start all over -- and you really think that this is faster? I don't think the math holds up.... I don't think bumping the competitor solves the issue. The real solution is to limit the MR time alloted to each competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 As I pointed out before, in IPSC matches up here we have trouble putting the smaller number of shooters through a match in 5 days than in the US would be put through in 3 days. And thats in spite of the fact that we have a more restrictive LAMR rule set. The proof that it doesn't help to restrict the LAMR is already there, we need to look elsewhere to figure out what is taking so long. I understand that, but if IPSC didn't have these restrictive LAMR rules, wouldn't the problem be worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now