Starting outside the shooting area heels on marks

[motosapiens]

The logic about "if I shoot, I get the penalty" is pretty flawed also. We are talking about a starting position, not running the COF. The rule never says you being outside, it just says touching the ground or object beyond the fault line. Post #37 above has it right.

that's an excellent point. thanks for bringing that up. That provides me a little more clarity.

this situation has come up a couple times this year for me, so I'm glad to see this discussion and think about it a little more.

I think that perhaps 'not inside the shooting area' is not exactly the same as 'outside the shooting area', and vice versa.

[gng4life]

Another way to look at "outside the shooting area" is that if (during the course of fire) a shooter has one foot on the ground outside the marked shooting area (and takes a shot), they are considered "out" and incur a procedural. So if one foot out means out, then I can see the gamer way of looking at the WSB (and would probably do it if I thought of it). If the intention of the WSB was to have the shooter start with both feet out of the shooting area, facing in a certain direction, it should have said that.

I get your point but the rules do not say you are outside the shooting area, they say you are "faulting"...this means making a mistake. Please point me to the rule with the word "outside" in the rule book. Ok, probably taking this part too far but you get my drift.

It's just plain English...I'm not mad at gamers but you gotta know when to say this is getting ridiculous...

As far as the WSB being more specific, I agree it can be but if we get to that point, we will eventually get to the point of other shooting sports that have no latitude at all. The little freedoms we get to be creative in USPSA...yeah... that's the part that makes this sport fun

[motosapiens]

I think the only thing that matters is that it's universally enforced. That's easy when you have dedicated RO's, but when you have roaming RO's (like most local matches, and like the staff shoots at most majors) it's good if everyone understands what the meaning of 'is' is.

At my area 1 stage we decided that "in the doorway, hands on x's" could be liberally interpreted (the only liberal thing we do, lol), and people did all sorts of things facing all sorts of directions. None of it mattered even 2% as much as just shooting everything quickly and accurately. I think a looser WSB actually gets into the head of some people who fancy themselves as gamers, and they spend more than 10 seconds thinking about gaming the start position instead of analyzing the rest of the stage and burning in a plan and executing it well.

[a matt]

I just like the "shoot em as you see em." Unless its stage 7 at the Miss Classic I gamed that one a bit to much and the RO's talked to Troy and he said reshoot. Lol so they adjusted the stage prop. Reshoot, I earned 2 mikes and it cost me a Top three in my class, but still a fun time.

Edited July 7, 2015 by a matt

[Cherryriver]

In the instance RePete cites, I was the MD/RM. I was called to confirm the interpretation. I declared outside meant outside.
Apparently the timing RO on the run(s) in question didn't get the message and the shooter started inside. The RO should have enforced the start position. The only other option is for the shooter to take the penalty and appeal.

While the logic of faulting outside during shooting being the inverse of faulting inside during starting was proffered, it's still incorrect.
Additionally, it's important to note that the start position and the portion of the course of fire with firing shots are two different things.
No one saw a need for additional verbiage to reinforce the plain language of the WSB. "Outside" means outside.

I always hesitate to change WSBs once the match is underway (this event took place more than halfway through, with 73 shooters) as it can easily lead to demands for reshoots that frankly, no one wants. In this case, there was no need, given the stage director/designer's plain language.

(I do like the cite from Webster's.)

[eric4069]

In the instance RePete cites, I was the MD/RM. I was called to confirm the interpretation. I declared outside meant outside.

Apparently the timing RO on the run(s) in question didn't get the message and the shooter started inside. The RO should have enforced the start position. The only other option is for the shooter to take the penalty and appeal.

While the logic of faulting outside during shooting being the inverse of faulting inside during starting was proffered, it's still incorrect.

Additionally, it's important to note that the start position and the portion of the course of fire with firing shots are two different things.

No one saw a need for additional verbiage to reinforce the plain language of the WSB. "Outside" means outside.

I always hesitate to change WSBs once the match is underway (this event took place more than halfway through, with 73 shooters) as it can easily lead to demands for reshoots that frankly, no one wants. In this case, there was no need, given the stage director/designer's plain language.

(I do like the cite from Webster's.)

Great post

+1

Eric

[RePete68]

Below is the response from Jay Worden of the NROI. OK, OK, I get it now. Outside means outside. Thank you to all for your input on this subject. RePete

One of the issues you have is the

rules seem to be clear, but how many people interpret the clear language

is the issue.

If they have the balls to contact Troy, I am sure his answer is you cannot

start that way.

Too many people equate the start position with the concept of faulting

while shooting.

Let's go the rules that apply. 2.2.1.2 states shooting boxes and fault lines

define the shooting area.3.2.1 states the starting position will be

specified in the WSB or it reverts to the default which is defined in

8.2.2. BTW: The solution to your problem was defined in 8.3.1. The CRO/RO

should not have started the shooter unless they complied with the start

position.

So the WSB stated, "the starting position being ""outside the shooting

area.""

10.2.1 does not apply, since it begins, "fires shots" This is not a

faulting question, it is a start position question. So we go to Appx. A3

"start position". You defined clearly what the start position was. Feet

outside the shooting area right? Having one in and one out is not outside

the shooting area. Cut and dried!! Of course, there is not specific rule

to say one in and one out is acceptable because it is not. It is like

trying to define a negative.

[yasko]

The deal about shooting with one foot out doesn't fly because that is with any part of the body touching the ground outside the shooting area, so as not to gain an advantage. So why would we let you game it in reverse to gain an advantage? Since the person started with something inside the shooting area, don't care which part, they were not outside the shooting area therefore not in compliance with the WSB and I can not start them. I would tell them to get their foot outside box and refer to 8.2.2

If they wanted to argue, I would have them USC, move on to the next shooter, call the RM and he/she would tell them the same thing, or at least they should.

JT

Note: As long as nothing was touching the ground inside the shooting area and their heels were touching Xs, they would be in compliance with the WSB. So if say, the Xs were wide and they wanted to put their feet perpendicular, this would be in compliance with how it's written and would need clarification or stand.

The point some folks are making is if you have one foot inside and one foot outside the shooting area while shooting, the rules say you are outside the shooting area. So, if you have one in and one out at the starting position, you are also outside the shooting area. The WSB said outside, so that requirement of the start position is met.

I agree with you to have the RM make the final call. After that, roll with it.

Fallacy!

Nothing is better than God

Banana is better than nothing.

Ergo, Banana is better than God.

[Mark R]

What's wrong with just saying "Standing completely outside the shooting area..." in the WSB, If that is the intent of the stage designer?

[motosapiens]

What's wrong with just saying "Standing completely outside the shooting area..." in the WSB, If that is the intent of the stage designer?

nothing. But it appears that even if the wsb says 'standing outside the shooting area...' it means the same thing.

[teros135]

There's nothing "wrong" with it, but it should be completely unnecessary. As many have said, "outside means outside". This thread is basically about trying to find ways to tweak our language so some people can maximally game the sport. It shouldn't be necessary to add dozens of words to WSBs or the rule book just because of the Semantic Gamers.

[motosapiens]

gaming is part of the fun. I'm cool with intentionally writing vague starting positions to see what people come up with.

[ima45dv8]

Me, too.

[Cherryriver]

Spend a few years RM-ing and you'll be cured of that curiosity.

Another thirty minutes of my life gone that could have been used doing something worthwhile.

[ima45dv8]

I have.