Just for those who are interested

[Foxbat]

Moving back to the upright mounts was like coming home... there was always something unnatural about the 90 deg mounts, no matter what I tried it always haunted me.

100% agree on the shifting POI issue - it is theoretical, in practice it doesn't matter.

For grins, I have been counting the vertical versus sidemounts in every issue of FS - there is no contest, many more verticals there.

[Chip_E]

I think this debate is about learning and unlearning. That is, once you've learned to present your pistol in a certain way, after time it will become very difficult to unlearn to accommodate the latest fad in mounts. I'm pretty sure that if you started shooting Open with a mount that placed the c-more 2 inches to the left of the bore, trained yourself to pickup the dot, and shot like that for a year or two...then switched to a conventional mount...when you came back to the 2 inch off bore mount you'd swear it was the only way to go. As we train and adapt, it's difficult to change, and for some impossible.

I come from a police/tactical background. We were taught weak thumb over strong thumb. When I started shooting USPSA, that was the first thing I had to unlearn, and it wasn't easy. I'd often catch myself going back to my old grip. Then, one day while I was instructing a new shooter about grip, and noticed the difference in grip contact between thumb over thumb and thumbs forward, a huge light went off, and I never had the wrong grip again. Not saying I ever have a good grip, but it took the physical and mental stimuli, as well as some time, to make me unlearn something that felt very comfortable.

For the record, I started Open with a 90 degree mount, and feel that I have the same dot confidence and pickup as those that shoot with a conventional mount. Sometimes change is good, but often not easy, and if you have a mount (or any piece of equipment that works well for you) learning to use it more efficiently is probably a more efficient way of enhancing your ability rather than switching to something new. Again, just my opinion.

[diehli]

I hadn't handled an Open gun in 7 years, but began with a Serendipity. Picked up an Open gun with a sideways mount and had all sorts of trouble picking up the dot. Switched to a standard mount, et voila, there was the dot.

This may be one of those things that's entirely personal (aside from the physics Alan describes). IOW, YMMV.

[Alan Adamson]

I think this debate is about learning and unlearning. That is, once you've learned to present your pistol in a certain way, after time it will become very difficult to unlearn to accommodate the latest fad in mounts. I'm pretty sure that if you started shooting Open with a mount that placed the c-more 2 inches to the left of the bore, trained yourself to pickup the dot, and shot like that for a year or two...then switched to a conventional mount...when you came back to the 2 inch off bore mount you'd swear it was the only way to go. As we train and adapt, it's difficult to change, and for some impossible.

I come from a police/tactical background. We were taught weak thumb over strong thumb. When I started shooting USPSA, that was the first thing I had to unlearn, and it wasn't easy. I'd often catch myself going back to my old grip. Then, one day while I was instructing a new shooter about grip, and noticed the difference in grip contact between thumb over thumb and thumbs forward, a huge light went off, and I never had the wrong grip again. Not saying I ever have a good grip, but it took the physical and mental stimuli, as well as some time, to make me unlearn something that felt very comfortable.

For the record, I started Open with a 90 degree mount, and feel that I have the same dot confidence and pickup as those that shoot with a conventional mount. Sometimes change is good, but often not easy, and if you have a mount (or any piece of equipment that works well for you) learning to use it more efficiently is probably a more efficient way of enhancing your ability rather than switching to something new. Again, just my opinion.

Remember all, my issue with a 90 has nothing to do with dot pickup... Heck the dot on a 90 was way easier to pick up than an over the top when I first started.

My issues with a 90 are 3 fold.

- the flex in the Cmore hinge due to it being 90 degrees out of phase with recoil and it's hinge properties. This causes a bow or wiggle in the dot that isn't there in the over the top version, this is more pronounced with a 6061 aluminum based mount than a 7075 aluminum based mount.

- The *mass* on the left of the gun that does 2 things - creates and tendency to have transitions from left to right feel more natural than right to left, puts a un-balanced mass on the left of the gun which causes you to counteract that both in recoil and in presentation

- *if* you don't run some form of dot hood, you are asking for premature dot module wear/melting/damage, and potential Zero creap - this is due to the fact that the gases from the breachface come up vertically directly into the dot module in some of the 90 degree mount locations.

As a result of the above, I went on a mission to find the holy grail and tried various solutions that put the scope back on over the top, in the end, I came back around full circle because of the advantages of the larger glass in the Cmore solutions, this may also include the RTS, which I'm about to test on a couple of different mounts.

Alan

[XRe]

My only question about the RTS is what will happen when the diode/emitter gets crudded up. The regular C-More diodes can't successfully be cleaned, so you swap out the diode and you're back to "brand new". If the RTS diode/emitter/whatever can't be cleaned successfully, you end up needing to buy a new scope???

[Alan Adamson]

My only question about the RTS is what will happen when the diode/emitter gets crudded up. The regular C-More diodes can't successfully be cleaned, so you swap out the diode and you're back to "brand new". If the RTS diode/emitter/whatever can't be cleaned successfully, you end up needing to buy a new scope???

Really good question Dave... Don't know the answer too.

Alan

[XRe]

Really good question Dave... Don't know the answer too.

I'll let you guys figure that one out

[BlueOvalBruin]

Have a couple matches now shooting the upright and I really like it. All my previous open gun experience was with the side-mounted cmores. My first draw of the day has been slow but I soon get used to it and then the index is no problem. I’m sure with more practice the first draw dot hunt will go away. After a 4 month layoff from shooting open I seem to already be shooting better after 2-3 matches than I did before. The dot tracks much straighter up and down than before and it’s predictability makes it much easier to shoot fast and accurately.

[zatchmo]

Thanks for bringing this thread back up. I've been running a sideways mount now for a few months and can't seem to master the dot. I think I'm going to keep an eye out for a standard mount now and give that a try.

[lcs]

Ok, back to #3.... If you aren't running some kinda of dot module hood with a 90 degree mount, I would *highly* recommend one.... Not for the claimed advantage, but to protect your dot module. I pulled a scope off a gun with a 90 degree mount, that had about 3000 rounds thought it, and in the process I pulled the hood off my module to get to the screw. I looked at my fingers and I couldn't believe how much residue was on the module from the breech face blast coming up. Had that just been a module exposed there, I'm sure it would be starting to show wear/melt, and I'm 100% sure that the module peep hole would be partial blocked. One other friend of mine continues to eat modules and I'm starting to think it's because of his 90 degree mount. He's not running any form of hood.

So file that one away as needed, but I'd sure get one if it were me.... In my case, both of my 90's had hoods

Alan

Not an issue with Quinn II that mounts the C-more more to the rear. Also negates the blast shield issue if you run barrel holes. I suspect the new Cheely mount would also do the same.

[gng4life]

Not an issue with Quinn II that mounts the C-more more to the rear. Also negates the blast shield issue if you run barrel holes. I suspect the new Cheely mount would also do the same.

Really? I have three Quinn II mounts and even with my newer, full size pistol, no popple holes, I still get some residue. I just shot a match and I still had to clean the lens after every few stages. This is much improved over cleaning it every stage and there is now much less to clean but I still have to clean it. Well...I don't "have" to but it sure does look better if I do...

[baa]

Like most things, I wonder if this is a highly subjective topic. I got an Open gun about three weeks ago. 9mm Major with a sideways C-more. I went sideways primarily for reliability reasons which are very specific to me- I am left handed and I have very large and long thumbs. My left thumb, even when laid down on my right hand, is in front of the ejection port. Derek at MC set the gun up to eject a little higher than usual so that the brass will clear my thumb. The only way that will work with a C-more is to sideways mount it. I don't know that this matters to right handers, but for me, the sideways mount gives me the most room for good brass ejection.

I have been shooting the crap out of the gun since i got it to get ready for Area 6. I have noticed a couple things which are counter to some of the experiences posted above-

1. The dot tracks up and down when I shoot. I have done a lot of bill drills etc to get a feel for the timing of the pistol and, at least to my eyes, the dot is tracking straight up and down.

2. I am not experiencing an issue with transitioning from right to left. If anything, I find it more comfortable with the dot sight than I do with iron sights. That may just be from having the dot vs irons, but so far, no issues with right to left transitions.

3. I also have a 22/45 pistol with a C-more mounted in an upright manner. I totally agree that as long as grip and presentation are good, there is no difference in finding the dot with either mount. I also agree that the whole offset thing is pretty overblown. I can go from an iron sighted gun to the 22/45 without any issues.

Now, I have only been shooting the gun for a few weeks, so my opinion may change in time, but so far, the sideways mount is working very well for me. I guess YMMV.

Edited April 12, 2012 by baa

[BlueOvalBruin]

I used to run the Quinn2 and with 3 hybrid holes on a middy (SV IMM) the gun would poo on the lens with each shot and I had to thoroughly clean it after every stage. With the SV upright mount + blast shield it’s much better and I only need to clean it every 3 stages or so. I was also getting some pitting on the lens with the sideways mount.

[zatchmo]

I used to run the Quinn2 and with 3 hybrid holes on a middy (SV IMM) the gun would poo on the lens with each shot and I had to thoroughly clean it after every stage. With the SV upright mount + blast shield it’s much better and I only need to clean it every 3 stages or so. I was also getting some pitting on the lens with the sideways mount.

I've heard of a lot of people getting pitting with no blast shield and a shorty. I have a matchmaster, and I haven't seen any yet, but I only have ~4k through the gun so far.

EDIT: I have a Cameron's 90* mount.

Edited April 13, 2012 by zatchmo

[gdboytyler]

...

3. I also have a 22/45 pistol with a C-more mounted in an upright manner. I totally agree that as long as grip and presentation are good, there is no difference in finding the dot with either mount. I also agree that the whole offset thing is pretty overblown. I can go from an iron sighted gun to the 22/45 without any issues.

Now, I have only been shooting the gun for a few weeks, so my opinion may change in time, but so far, the sideways mount is working very well for me. I guess YMMV.

If you want to put a sideways mount on your 22/45 pistol, check out this thread:

http://www.brianenos...howtopic=135873

I ordered a sideways mount from Barry for my Tactical Solutions .22 conversion kit to see if I want to switch my open gun to C-More (upright or sideways). So far, it seems more natural for me to go with the sideways mount because it's about the same height over bore as my Tasco tube red dot.

If you're interested in a sideways mount for a .22, you can contact Barry at daktazbarr at aol.com

[hax]

Has anyone tried to put putty under the cmore to stop it's movement?

[Chris iliff]

Has anyone tried to put putty under the cmore to stop it's movement?

??????????

[hax]

I've never held a cmore up close but based on the pictures I've seen and the problems I've read, I was wondering if you could stop the flex element of the cmore by placing something under the area that flexes. Is it possible to stop the flex? If so would this fix the problem a lot of people are having with the vertical mounts? Has anyone tried this?

[diehli]

The purpose of the flex is to absorb shock. Don't allow it to absorb shock, it stresses the material. Stress it enough, and it breaks.

[XRe]

In addition, the spot where you'd have to place "putty" or some other stop would be the top of the slide. So, the slide and scope are then going to rub or bang together. That's no bueno, too...

[hax]

The purpose of the flex is to absorb shock. Don't allow it to absorb shock, it stresses the material. Stress it enough, and it breaks.

Delta, J point, RTS all have no flex. I guess it would depend on how well the c-more is made

just a thought

Edited April 17, 2012 by hax

[diehli]

They're *designed* not to flex.