Help with accuracy of my reloads

[otis_bartleh]

I've been reloading for about 2 - 2 1/2 months, and have tried a bunch of OAL and powder drop combos, and I can't seem to find a load that will group under 4-5" at ~10 yards. They have all functioned fine, being shot out of a G19, stock barrel.

I've been using Winchester small pistol primers, range brass, and W231 so far since I was given a 4lb jug on loan, but did try a load with WSF with the same results. Crimp varies slightly due to range brass, but is always .375-.379 Reloading on a Lee Classic Turret with the Lee 4 Die set. I've used some Zero's at first and mainly X-Treme plated bullets, 124gr RN bullets for all loads. A lot of people I shoot USPSA with have been using these bullets for years and recommended them, and X-Treme told me they can go up to 1,500 fps, so seems they have pretty good plating!

A few examples of loads I've tried are:

4.9, 5.0, & 5.1gr W231 @ 1.150 OAL // 4.7gr W231 @ 1.120, 1.130, & 1.150 OAL // 4.7-4.8gr WSF @ 1.169 OAL

When testing, I'm bench rest shooting at about 10 yards, and just can't seem to get under 4-5" group. I thought it was me having multiple off days until I fired a friends G34 just fine. Then shot some old Miwalls I still had through my gun, 124gr factory reloads, and I grouped those well through my gun. So this says to me it's not me or my gun, but my reloads.

As a reloading newb, I am kind of stumped as to what to try next... Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to try and be as descriptive as possible. I've been searching and reading around this forum and have learned a bunch, so anyone have any advice on this situation?

[Sarge]

were the factory rounds 115's? Maybe the stubby little G19 would prefer a lighter bullet.

How do your rounds shoot out of other guns? Don't know? Check and see how they shoot in other guns.

All I really mess with are competition type pistols so to me 4" @ten yards sounds fine for a gun that is FAR from a competition gun. It's a defensive handgun and not designed to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards.

You said you tried ZERO'S before going with the plated bullets. Were they accurate?

Plated bullets can vary drastically in quality from batch to batch and from round to round. I don't think I would ever judge a guns accuracy based off of loads using a plated bullet. Too many ways to fail.

[otis_bartleh]

Sarge, thanks for the response, I'll answer step by step...

The factory reloads from Miwall are also 124 grain bullets. I did try my rounds out of a G17 with stock barrel and saw the same results as with my gun. Also had someone else shoot my gun and loads with same results.

And while I know a G19 isn't a competition gun, I do use this for USPSA as I like to shoot what I'd rely on. I love USPSA and IDPA, but enjoy it more for fun, prep, and muscle memory training as opposed to competition. For reference, the Miwalls had about a 1" group with touching holes at ~10 yards.

For the Zero's, I didn't have much luck with those either, but I really wrote that off to them being the first 500 I ever loaded. Maybe try them again, or a different FMJ round (Montana Gold / Precision Delta)? (edit to add: For what its worth, I think that Miwall uses plated bullets also as when I pulled one, the crimp had cut through the plating)

I've had my G19 for a while, and it has seen almost 20k rounds without issue. I'm not looking for bullseye accuracy, but I am looking for at least the accuracy I had with the Miwall factory reloads / other factory ammo.

Edited March 13, 2012 by otis_bartleh

[AS350Driver]

Maybe try a smaller powder charge. I'm using 124g Precision Deltas with only 4.3g of w231 with great results, and they do make a power factor on average of 130. 4.9-5.1 just seems like it might be a bit on the hot side.

[Doc Hunter]

I would look at your bullets. Not all plated bullets are the same even from lot to lot. I gave up on plated bullets after a batch that would not hold minute-of-berm. And they were from a "known" manufacture. Reliability trumps cost.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Doc Hunter

[Hi-Power Jack]

Maybe try a smaller powder charge. I'm using 124g Precision Deltas with only 4.3g of w231 with great results, and they do make a power factor on average of 130.

+1. You might be driving the bullets too fast,

and stripping.

Could also be the crimp - too much is a possibility.

Jack

[Youngeyes]

Incorrect crimp is the accuracy killer. My biggest groups came from a bad or inconsistent crimp.

[GregJ]

Also, when testing loads for accuracy, make sure you're shooting from a rest, even at 10 yds. A little longer distance would probably be better to test for accuracy. IIRC, I load my 9mm 115gr at 1.156 OAL and 4.8gr of W231.

[otis_bartleh]

Wow, thanks for the responses, this is a great community! I really appreciate the help...

Maybe try a smaller powder charge. I'm using 124g Precision Deltas with only 4.3g of w231 with great results, and they do make a power factor on average of 130. 4.9-5.1 just seems like it might be a bit on the hot side.

4.5gr of W231 with Zero FMJ at 1.150 got me average power factor of 127.72, what's the oal that load? 5.1 gr load got me at 137 power factor (knocks down steel better), and burns clean, but not accurate. I'd prefer to stay around/over 130 power factor to make sure a light one would still pass, if needed...

I would look at your bullets. Not all plated bullets are the same even from lot to lot. I gave up on plated bullets after a batch that would not hold minute-of-berm. And they were from a "known" manufacture. Reliability trumps cost.

Thinking I might try fmj's again... Would suck to not get in our group buys on the X-Treme's though, great way to get them cheap... Just weighted 20 bullets after typing this, were between 123.6 to 124.2 with most all at 123.6 and 123.8... Is that too much variance?

Could also be the crimp - too much is a possibility.

Jack

Incorrect crimp is the accuracy killer. My biggest groups came from a bad or inconsistent crimp.

I just measured 20 rounds and the crimp on all of them is .3765-.378, does that sound OK?

Also, when testing loads for accuracy, make sure you're shooting from a rest, even at 10 yds. A little longer distance would probably be better to test for accuracy. IIRC, I load my 9mm 115gr at 1.156 OAL and 4.8gr of W231.

Definitely from a rest...

[polizei1]

Granted I'm shooting a SA EMP, but my load is:

Precision Delta 124gr

4.5gr Win 231

CCI #500 SPP

Mixed Brass

OAL - 1.140

I've tested these numerous times and they touch, probably ~1" group at 7 yards. Very accurate mild load. And that's out of a 3" barrel using a 23lb recoil spring. I think your powder weight is too high. Your crimp is fine, I'm in the same range. I would also suggest going with PD, Zeros, or MG for bullets.

You might also want to try 147's and see if that makes a difference. I've recently started testing some, I'm using:

Precision Delta 147gr

3.6gr Win 231

CCI #500 SPP

Mixed Brass

OAL - 1.150

Edited March 14, 2012 by polizei1

[Doc Hunter]

Otis

It has nothing to do with the weight of the bullet.

[AS350Driver]

Wow, thanks for the responses, this is a great community! I really appreciate the help...

Maybe try a smaller powder charge. I'm using 124g Precision Deltas with only 4.3g of w231 with great results, and they do make a power factor on average of 130. 4.9-5.1 just seems like it might be a bit on the hot side.

4.5gr of W231 with Zero FMJ at 1.150 got me average power factor of 127.72, what's the oal that load? 5.1 gr load got me at 137 power factor (knocks down steel better), and burns clean, but not accurate. I'd prefer to stay around/over 130 power factor to make sure a light one would still pass, if needed...

[

Sorry for not posting the OAL. It's 1.140 shot out of an M&P full size 4.25" barrel.

[otis_bartleh]

I'm gonna try some lighter loads again then and see if that helps. I loaded lighter loads at first, but might have had more variance due to not being as fluid on the press as I am now?

[Seeker]

Incorrect crimp is the accuracy killer. My biggest groups came from a bad or inconsistent crimp.

I have had issues with over crimping plated bullets with both .45 and 9mm. After squishing them to death, I also had serious accuracy problems.

Can you pull a couple and measure the bullet diameter after they have been loaded?

I have given up on trying to save a few pennies with plated bullets.

[wes777]

if all of this excellent advice doesnt work. drop in KKM barrel.

[Tom E]

"Lee 4 Die set", so I assume you're using a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Try using a different crimp die and Not using the FCD. I also assume you're seating the bullet in a separate step and then crimping. If you're not you should be. Seat the bullet, then crimp in the next station. Don't mean to be redundant, just trying to cover the bases.

[otis_bartleh]

I have had issues with over crimping plated bullets with both .45 and 9mm. After squishing them to death, I also had serious accuracy problems.

Can you pull a couple and measure the bullet diameter after they have been loaded?

I have given up on trying to save a few pennies with plated bullets.

I'll pull a few and check. And when getting in on the group buy, I save about $15-20 per 1k, but otherwise, Precision Delta's are about the same price, so I'm gonna order a couple thousand since I know they're good, and I'm not getting good results now anyway...

if all of this excellent advice doesnt work. drop in KKM barrel.

Thought about that, but since my barrel still has acceptable accuracy for me with other ammo, I'm going to save my limited funds for now. It is on the list though...

"Lee 4 Die set", so I assume you're using a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Try using a different crimp die and Not using the FCD. I also assume you're seating the bullet in a separate step and then crimping. If you're not you should be. Seat the bullet, then crimp in the next station. Don't mean to be redundant, just trying to cover the bases.

Yes, using the FCD. I have the seating die adjusted to not crimp, but just seat, and crimp with the the FCD. No redundancy, I appreciate the help! Since my crimp and seat seem pretty consistent, is there another reason to try another crimp die?

[Doc Hunter]

The FCD is sizing down the soft bullets. Try a standard crimp die.

[polizei1]

Sounds like that might be the issue. I'd try loading a few and just don't use the FCD. I've heard it swags lead too. I haven't had any issues, but I'm using PD bullets. Report back when you find out.

I'm curious of the measurement of the bullet. Pull one and check it.

[docatru]

All of the advice above is valuable in my experience. I have loaded .45 for 10 years and just recently started loading 9mm for an M&P 9c. My personal and limited experience with 9mm in this gun is that OAL, powder type and weight of charge affect accuracy MORE than with my .45 1911's.

I am still in the process of doing substantial load testing (following the highly informational posts by all of the forum members but special kudos to Darrell's charts). My experience may be helpful, but the conclusion so far is that for 9mm in this M&P9c (with DYI Burwell trigger job)

I'm using these components: Bayou Bullets 125 and 147; Power Pistol, N350, WST, Clays.

There seemed to be no pattern to the differing results achieved by changing variables.

* The size of groups shooting 50' from a rested position swing widely (from a minimum of 1.5" to 5") by changing the OAL from 1.116, 1.12, 1.131, 1.14, 1.169.

* Changing powder type radically alters group size, even if I keep the charge weight producing fps that are similar.

This M&P9c seems to like 125 better than 147. It likes shorter OAL the best (1.116 in the 124), but a medium OAL in the 147 (1.4 in the 147). It likes N350 and WST the best (Power Pistol is LOUD out of the compact barrel!). I can't find N320 locally.

Trying the same load with the Lee FCD and with the standard Dillon crimp die has resulted in only minor fluctuations in group size (+/- .2").

Best load so far:

Bayou Bullets 125

N350 4.6 gr.

1.116 OAL

1.5 inch rested @ 50'

Bayou Bullets 125

WST 4.2 gr

1.12 OAL

1.9 inch rested @ 50'

Hope this information is helpful. My conclusion is that a systematic load development carefully documenting the variables is allowing me to find the most accurate load.

DOC

[DougCarden]

Crimp at .377. Crimp until no sharp edge, that will cause extraction problem in 9mm.

Your best accuracy will be with a medium powder, like 231 or Tightgroup. You are right on track.

Run your load around 1160 fps or so. That load with a plated 115 will go through one hole with a G19 at 10 yards.

If yours wont....I would suggest getting with a good shooter and have them critque your grip and trigger stroke.

I don't know you, and am not trying to be coarse, but most shooters I work with that buy Glocks have similar problems...

That is a tough gun to shoot groups with, so don't beat yourself up too hard.

Keep at it!

DougC

[otis_bartleh]

The FCD is sizing down the soft bullets. Try a standard crimp die.

I have read about that with lead, but I wasn't really worried about that with the X-Treme's due to the plating thickness, but that's just heresay for all I know. I don't have another crimp die, but am about to place an order for some Precision Delta's, so hopefully that won't matter as much with those bullets?

Sounds like that might be the issue. I'd try loading a few and just don't use the FCD. I've heard it swags lead too. I haven't had any issues, but I'm using PD bullets. Report back when you find out.

I'm curious of the measurement of the bullet. Pull one and check it.

I'm using the X-treme plated not their lead, but will be pulling a couple in a few hours when a friend gets here with his puller, and will report back on that.

My conclusion is that a systematic load development carefully documenting the variables is allowing me to find the most accurate load.

DOC

Shortened your response here, thanks for the info! I fully agree, I actually created a spreadsheet to track my reloading. I have individual sheets for different loads tried (all loads named by 9-A, 9-B, etc..) and all their data, including chrono results, grouping, standard deviation, and power factor calculations. Even a table of contents with quick stats, an on going round count of rounds reloaded (just for my own knowledge and press maintenance reminders) and a sheet to print for taking to the range to write results down on.

Crimp at .377. Crimp until no sharp edge, that will cause extraction problem in 9mm.

Your best accuracy will be with a medium powder, like 231 or Tightgroup. You are right on track.

Run your load around 1160 fps or so. That load with a plated 115 will go through one hole with a G19 at 10 yards.

If yours wont....I would suggest getting with a good shooter and have them critque your grip and trigger stroke.

I don't know you, and am not trying to be coarse, but most shooters I work with that buy Glocks have similar problems...

That is a tough gun to shoot groups with, so don't beat yourself up too hard.

Keep at it!

DougC

Cool, crimp seems ok then. Although... While I have had no fail to ejects, even under rapid fire and quick mag changes of 30 straight rounds, I do notice that some of my shells are slightly flat towards the mouth on the neck. It isn't on all of them, is very slight, and has caused no failures yet, although I've been trying to figure that one out too... I have had another shooter better than myself try it also to confirm. For 6 weeks I thought it was just me shooting like crap. I've put about 20k rounds through my gun though and am a pretty good shot with it too, which is why I felt so much better when I tried the factory loads for the first time in a while and found I grouped those nicely, and also grouped nicely firing my friends gun. That was a big relief... Kind of.... But with the quality of shooters I have at my club range, I have no shame in letting others test my gun to make sure it's not me.

Thank you all for your responses. Being a shooter for most of my life, I always was wanting to get into reloading, and this forum is what finally gave me the confidence.

[otis_bartleh]

I pulled 2 bullets, and on one, you can barely see a line, and it is only about 1/2 way around. On the other, it is all the way around, and just slight visible, and I can just barely feel it with my fingernail. The line is actually more visible in the pictures...

I saw another thread looking for G19 loads and a few of them are running crimp at .376, should I try crimping a bit more on these bullets I've already made?

Edit: Will measure the difference with a caliper when I get home and update the post...

Edited March 14, 2012 by otis_bartleh

[otis_bartleh]

I just measured some bullets, and after crimp, there is no difference. But the bullets are measuring to .3535-.354. Not a single one out of 21 measured was .355. Shouldn't it be at .355? Could that be the problem? I've had 3 different lot #'s too, so if they just under size their bullets, might that explain it, using a stock barrel?

[Doc Hunter]

Get some real jacketed bullets. Load them and get your confidence back.