Are stage guns allowed?

[Norther]

Well, they told us there wouldn't be a match this weekend unless they got someone to design the stages. My first time.

Seems like a while back I read in Front Sight where they used a stage gun (a belt-fed MG, no less) provided as part of the stage in some major match. While I don't have an MG, I think it'd be fun to have us shoot one target (of eight) with my Kahr PM40 from a table start. I can't seem to find anywhere in the rules to verify that it's legal. Rule 5.1.9 would seem to forbid it. Thoughts?

[Skydiver]

You seem to have found it.

The word "use" in that rule seems to be key.

Now, having a stage rifle or shotgun on the other hand sounds legal since the rule only uses the word "handgun", albeit people will point out that a USPSA Handgun match is suppose to challenge Handgun shooting not, other weapon systems.

Personally, though, I'd love to get a chance no shoot a Kriss Vector "pistol" on a stage. http://www.kriss-tdi.com/products/kriss-sdp45-acp.html It'll probably just have to be a side match/stage.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Skydiver

[MarkCO]

Allowed in Multi-Gun matches, not handgun.

[Schutzenmeister]

If you want the specific rule prohibiting this, try 4.6.1.1. As previously noted, there is an exception under Multi-Gun Rules.

[Supermoto]

I think it'd be fun to have us shoot one target (of eight) with my Kahr PM40 from a table start.

It's not. If I wanted to shoot a different gun at a match, I would have brought that gun.

[bbbean]

If I wanted to shoot a different gun at a match, I would have brought that gun.

+1

[High Lord Gomer]

I understand most people's distaste for stage guns but at the 2010 MultiGun Nationals I had the great luck to work the stage where all of the competitors started by firing a 10-round strip through a fully automatic M240 with a Surefire suppresser. During the whole match we had just one failure and all it needed was a quick cleaning and lubing and it then ran fine again.

One of the dangers of a stage gun is that any failure becomes a reshoot becase it is the match's problem rather than the competitor's problem.

[MarkCO]

I understand most people's distaste for stage guns but at the 2010 MultiGun Nationals I had the great luck to work the stage where all of the competitors started by firing a 10-round strip through a fully automatic M240 with a Surefire suppresser. During the whole match we had just one failure and all it needed was a quick cleaning and lubing and it then ran fine again.

One of the dangers of a stage gun is that any failure becomes a reshoot becase it is the match's problem rather than the competitor's problem.

So everyone got a chance to fire it, practice with it, check zero... While cool, having them count as a scoring element is a bad idea all-around.

[Norther]

If you want the specific rule prohibiting this, try 4.6.1.1. As previously noted, there is an exception under Multi-Gun Rules.

There it is. Thanks.

[Graham Smith]

My first time.

Let me suggest that you apply the KISS principle here.

There's a lot more to doing effective stage designs than some people imagine. There is a tendency to throw in too many creative things when you are starting out and invariable that creates problems. Picking up and shooting a gun you are not familiar with is one of those creative things.

If two people have a problem, then that's two reshoots.

What if someone has an AD with that stage pistol?

[Norther]

Let me suggest that you apply the KISS principle here.

There's a lot more to doing effective stage designs than some people imagine. There is a tendency to throw in too many creative things when you are starting out and invariable that creates problems. Picking up and shooting a gun you are not familiar with is one of those creative things.

If two people have a problem, then that's two reshoots.

What if someone has an AD with that stage pistol?

It's already been established that it's not permitted anyway.

Here in Fairbanks, the only place we can shoot in the winter is the state-run 50-foot indoor range. We're not allowed to go downrange, so all our targets have to hang from the cables, and we can move side-to-side only. We can only shoot paper targets, and space is very limited. Anything we can do to make it interesting is good. A match we did earlier in the winter did have a stage gun, a .22 AR-15, and I didn't hear any complaints from anyone. Guess no one noticed it was against the rules. We're also operating under time constraints (we have only 4 hours to shoot, clean up and be off the range), so the reshoot concern and having to make 2 guns ready for every shooter probably would have made it unworkable anyway.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[Skydiver]

If you want the specific rule prohibiting this, try 4.6.1.1. As previously noted, there is an exception under Multi-Gun Rules.

Bingo!

[EkuJustice]

I think it'd be fun to have us shoot one target (of eight) with my Kahr PM40 from a table start.

It's not. If I wanted to shoot a different gun at a match, I would have brought that gun.

I agree on that all the way especialy on scoring targets

[High Lord Gomer]

Here in Fairbanks, the only place we can shoot in the winter is the state-run 50-foot indoor range. We're not allowed to go downrange, so all our targets have to hang from the cables, and we can move side-to-side only. We can only shoot paper targets, and space is very limited. Anything we can do to make it interesting is good.

You may already be doing something similar but in our indoor range with cable operated hangers I bought a bunch of small tarps and clips to hang them from the wires to create "rooms". Even though you can only move laterally, if might help to have it feel like you are going down the hallway with targets in the rooms.

We have also done charging and retreating targets that we manually start moving as soon as the buzzer is pressed.

[Norther]

[You may already be doing something similar but in our indoor range with cable operated hangers I bought a bunch of small tarps and clips to hang them from the wires to create "rooms". Even though you can only move laterally, if might help to have it feel like you are going down the hallway with targets in the rooms.

We have also done charging and retreating targets that we manually start moving as soon as the buzzer is pressed.

Good idea, but it won't work the way our range is set up. I have shot on a different range where they do this, and it helps a lot. They shoot steel indoors too (with plywood and sheet steel splatter guards), but their range is private and they don't have the rules to contend with. We can't go downrange to set up the tarps, and there's no way to run them out from behind the firing line.

The moving target idea is interesting, but I think it would be hard to keep it the same for all shooters, with different people doing the cranking.

[High Lord Gomer]

Ahh, you're must be manually operated. Ours are electric so they are consistent.

[Norther]

Yeah, manual. Low-tech.

[LPatterson]

Let me suggest that you apply the KISS principle here.

There's a lot more to doing effective stage designs than some people imagine. There is a tendency to throw in too many creative things when you are starting out and invariable that creates problems. Picking up and shooting a gun you are not familiar with is one of those creative things.

If two people have a problem, then that's two reshoots.

What if someone has an AD with that stage pistol?

It's already been established that it's not permitted anyway.

Here in Fairbanks, the only place we can shoot in the winter is the state-run 50-foot indoor range. We're not allowed to go downrange, so all our targets have to hang from the cables, and we can move side-to-side only. We can only shoot paper targets, and space is very limited. Anything we can do to make it interesting is good. A match we did earlier in the winter did have a stage gun, a .22 AR-15, and I didn't hear any complaints from anyone. Guess no one noticed it was against the rules. We're also operating under time constraints (we have only 4 hours to shoot, clean up and be off the range), so the reshoot concern and having to make 2 guns ready for every shooter probably would have made it unworkable anyway.

Thanks everyone for your input.

By using the AR-15 you created a multigun match where it is legal. Some people who don't know freezing temps and think 60 is cold can't understand how you cope. I've seen airplanes smaller than some of your mosquito's so indoors I could live with even with the restrictions..

[Graham Smith]

It's already been established that it's not permitted anyway.

Yes, but I was really trying to make the point that Murphy is alive and well and waiting for you.

If a competitors gun jams then it's on them. If a stage gun jams, then it's a REF and they get a reshoot. What I was trying to say is that any prop you use can malfunction so that must be taken into consideration when you design a stage. Be very careful about getting too creative and creating a problem. I know, I've done it, as did the guy I took over from and the guy before him.

[Carmoney]

Back when we ran the King of Revo match in Iowa, we employed stage guns from time to time. Once the stage gun was an 11-87, which you had to use to knock down some poppers before depositing the shotgun in a barrel, drawing your handgun, and moving on through the stage. Another stage gun was a S&W Model 10, which was used to engage three close IPSC targets before moving on through the stage.

The guns worked perfectly, and I thought everybody really enjoyed those stages. However, afterwards we did get a little bit of negative feedback about the stage guns. A couple people didn't care for them.

I understand stage guns are not allowed under the rules. And I realize there are good reasons for those rules. However, it's sort of a shame, because being able to effectively employ various types of guns is certainly a practical shooting skill. Too many competitive shooters get so locked into one particular gun that they really aren't very effective with anything except that exact gun. That's one reason competition pistol shooters have generally sucked on Top Shot!

[wgnoyes]

Range Master Instructor George Jones touched on this topic quite effectively and graphically at a Lvl1 RO Seminar, where there was a stage that had you pick up and shoot a magnum revolver. He showed a picture where the unfortunate fellow, who apparently was not familiar with revolvers, put his weak-hand thumb forward through the plane of the cylinder gap and had it damned near cut off down to the bone. No, we don't do stage handguns.

[Jim Norman]

In a Multi-Gun Match a Stage Gun CAN be fun, but there is the reality of malfunctions and of people that may not be familiar with the Stage Gun.

I have shot matches that had you use grenade launchers, SAW guns, Uzis and others. They ALL worked well.

I have shot matches with a single barrel shot gun that failed repeatedly, 22 semiauto rifles that failed (and there were three of them)

A m700 that someone twisted the knobs on the scope so that after he shot no one could hit the freaking planet, let alone the target.

So unless you have multiple back-ups and an armorer on the stage, I would strongly suggest against the use of Stage Guns. If you absolutely MUST use a stage gun, make it the very first shots and also have the competitor start holding the gun, no pick-up, no draws.

[MarkCO]

However, it's sort of a shame, because being able to effectively employ various types of guns is certainly a practical shooting skill. Too many competitive shooters get so locked into one particular gun that they really aren't very effective with anything except that exact gun. That's one reason competition pistol shooters have generally sucked on Top Shot!

And why some started 3Gun over 30 years ago. PS, Gaby seems to be doing well...