sperman Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Here is the WSB from a stage I shot recently: Start Position: Standing in Box A, hand relaxed at sides.. Handgun is unloaded on table. All ammo for the stage on table and/or on the barels. No Ammo on the shooter at any time during the stage. Procedure: On signal engage targets as you are able from within the shooting area. At a match with a dedicated CRO for the stage, it probably wouldn't be too bad, but with Imbeded RO's that WSB sure leaves a lot of room for interpretation. (IMO.) What if the shooter grabs a mag off of the barrel, and realized he needs to fire a makeup shot. Is that a procedural? What if the shooter decides to put the mags in his magpouch? 1 procedural? 1 per mag? 1 per shot fired? As a stage designer, why force this on the shooter. Tell the shooter he has to start with all mags on the table and barrels, but once the buzzer goes off, let the shooter solve the problem on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Well, that would suck if the shooter puts the mag in their pocket at "Unload and show clear", or if they still have mags in their mag pouches at "Make Ready". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Should not be a procedural for shooting make up shot with mag from table or barrel. That is where all ammo must come from on the stage per WSB. It is definitely a significant advantage if you do not have to go to a barrel or the table for a reload. Should be a procedural per shot fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 And what to do with the shooter who decides to shoot the stage strong hand only, while holding spare magazines in the weak hand? Does this NROI ruling apply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 This just seems like poor design/wording on the WSB. I'm sure when the WSB stated, "no ammo on the shooter at any time..." that it meant in retention devices or pockets. They probably never imagined someone would carry a reloading device around with them in their hand. However, going by strict wording of the WSB, if they carried the ammo in their hand, then that would be a procedural. The NROI ruling was for division specific starts and does not play into this equation. Good point though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Doesnt seem compicated at all, but the wording could probably be made more clear. At 2010 LPR Nat'ls there was a similar stage with following WSB: Start Position: Strong hand grasping door knob at either door. All extra ammunition must be placed on either barrel and all reloads must come from barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I think its bad wording, how do you shoot the stage with a loaded gun if you cant have ammo on you. I understand the intent. how about all reloads must start from barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Doesnt seem compicated at all, but the wording could probably be made more clear. At 2010 LPR Nat'ls there was a similar stage with following WSB: Start Position: Strong hand grasping door knob at either door. All extra ammunition must be placed on either barrel and all reloads must come from barrels. That wording is nice and clear. It lets the shooter take time to put reloading devices into pouches and pockets after the start signal for later use should they want to. The wording in the original post says "No ammo on the shooter at any time during the stage." Edited March 6, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 As a stage designer, why force this on the shooter. Tell the shooter he has to start with all mags on the table and barrels, but once the buzzer goes off, let the shooter solve the problem on his own. BINGO! I'll second that! It's time course designers stop trying to impose silly, even rediculous conditions on shooters. On the table at the start ... OK. But leave it to the shooter to figure out after the buzzer!!! (1.1.5 ROCKS!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 As a stage designer, why force this on the shooter. Tell the shooter he has to start with all mags on the table and barrels, but once the buzzer goes off, let the shooter solve the problem on his own. BINGO! I'll second that! It's time course designers stop trying to impose silly, even rediculous conditions on shooters. On the table at the start ... OK. But leave it to the shooter to figure out after the buzzer!!! (1.1.5 ROCKS!) I agree I dont care what you make me do prior to the beep but after the buzzer its my time to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Doesnt seem compicated at all, but the wording could probably be made more clear. At 2010 LPR Nat'ls there was a similar stage with following WSB: Start Position: Strong hand grasping door knob at either door. All extra ammunition must be placed on either barrel and all reloads must come from barrels. That wording is nice and clear. It lets the shooter take time to put reloading devices into pouches and pockets after the start signal for later use should they want to. Actually, no it doesn't. "All reloads must come from barrels" Plus, there was another line in that 2010 Nats WSB which said something along the lines of "Magazines may not be carried on the shooter's person." ---I remember it clearly, because I picked up one in my hand, kept it in my hand while shooting, reloaded with it, and received a significant number of procedural penalties that dropped me 8 places at that particular Nationals. Didn't put it in a mag pouch, just had it in my hand, but that was apparently enough for a "per shot fired" set of penalties. So in other words, that Nats had a stage just like the OP stated, though their WSB is worded differently---and at that Nats, it meant one penalty per shot for the entire time you had a mag on you (anywhere) that wasn't in the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Doesnt seem compicated at all, but the wording could probably be made more clear. At 2010 LPR Nat'ls there was a similar stage with following WSB: Start Position: Strong hand grasping door knob at either door. All extra ammunition must be placed on either barrel and all reloads must come from barrels. That wording is nice and clear. It lets the shooter take time to put reloading devices into pouches and pockets after the start signal for later use should they want to. The wording in the original post says "No ammo on the shooter at any time during the stage." Yeah, right, the reloads must come from the barrels but what if you bump the barrel and it falls to the ground and have to pick it up. Is that now a procedural? The wording does need some changing still. On a different note, if you put the reloading devices in your pouches or pockets, you can't use those devices to reload with unless you want the procedural (according to statement, "...all reloads must come from the barrels.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? Yes, by proxy, but that stipulation was that it was to "only" come from the barrel, not from any other location. My problem with this is it doesn't stipulate if mags are bumped and knocked to the ground, will retrieving them require you to put them back on the barrel and then loading them or not. When the WSB gets too detailed on a freestyle CoF, I start to worry. We all see the intention here but it was just done in the wrong manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I would say what if the mag gets dropped does it have to go back on the barrel. If that was the case, and the barrel was a good distance out of the way, someone may "mess up" a reload and send the mag hurdling in the direction of travel. Im a big believer of set it how you want them to start at the beginning of the stage then let them go for it after that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? That would be ruling...... If you wanted something different, inserting the word "directly" might help.... Bottom line: I wouldn't run the stage this way -- I'd have the wording changed by the RM.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? Yes, by proxy, but that stipulation was that it was to "only" come from the barrel, not from any other location. My problem with this is it doesn't stipulate if mags are bumped and knocked to the ground, will retrieving them require you to put them back on the barrel and then loading them or not. When the WSB gets too detailed on a freestyle CoF, I start to worry. We all see the intention here but it was just done in the wrong manner. All the mags only came off the barrel -- the shooter didn't start with any on his body..... :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? This didn't work at the 2010 Nats, with a similar WSB---and with just having it in the hand, as opposed to actually pouching it. Edited March 7, 2012 by Thomas H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? This didn't work at the 2010 Nats, with a similar WSB---and with just having it in the hand, as opposed to actually pouching it. Did it survive arbitration at 2010 Nationals? Or was there no attempt to arb the procedurals applied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? Yes, by proxy, but that stipulation was that it was to "only" come from the barrel, not from any other location. My problem with this is it doesn't stipulate if mags are bumped and knocked to the ground, will retrieving them require you to put them back on the barrel and then loading them or not. When the WSB gets too detailed on a freestyle CoF, I start to worry. We all see the intention here but it was just done in the wrong manner. All the mags only came off the barrel -- the shooter didn't start with any on his body..... :ph34r: Didn't it say that all reloads "must" come from the barrels? If you put them in your pouch, now they came from your pouch. Did I miss your point? Edited March 7, 2012 by gng4life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Didn't it say that all reloads "must" come from the barrels? If you put them in your pouch, now they came from your pouch. Did I miss your point? If you follow that logic that time spent in the pouch now makes the reload to come from the pouch rather than the barrel, then it would follow that time spent in the shooter's hand makes the reload come from the hand, rather than the barrel. For example, a shooter grabs a mag from the barrel and takes 5-6 steps away from the barrel before the mag finally makes it into the gun, is that a reload from the barrel or from the hand? What is to differentiate that from a shooter who grabs a mag from the barrel, takes 1 or more shots with his loaded gun before replacing the mag that is currently in the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Didn't it say that all reloads "must" come from the barrels? If you put them in your pouch, now they came from your pouch. Did I miss your point? If you follow that logic that time spent in the pouch now makes the reload to come from the pouch rather than the barrel, then it would follow that time spent in the shooter's hand makes the reload come from the hand, rather than the barrel. For example, a shooter grabs a mag from the barrel and takes 5-6 steps away from the barrel before the mag finally makes it into the gun, is that a reload from the barrel or from the hand? What is to differentiate that from a shooter who grabs a mag from the barrel, takes 1 or more shots with his loaded gun before replacing the mag that is currently in the gun? Exactly, another great point. That's what makes this WSB hard to run and enforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? Yes, by proxy, but that stipulation was that it was to "only" come from the barrel, not from any other location. My problem with this is it doesn't stipulate if mags are bumped and knocked to the ground, will retrieving them require you to put them back on the barrel and then loading them or not. When the WSB gets too detailed on a freestyle CoF, I start to worry. We all see the intention here but it was just done in the wrong manner. All the mags only came off the barrel -- the shooter didn't start with any on his body..... :ph34r: Didn't it say that all reloads "must" come from the barrels? If you put them in your pouch, now they came from your pouch. Did I miss your point? And the reloads did -- by way of a stop in the mag pouch -- but they were retrieved from a barrel, at some point before reloaded into the gun.... The devil's in the details..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Didn't it say that all reloads "must" come from the barrels? If you put them in your pouch, now they came from your pouch. Did I miss your point? If you follow that logic that time spent in the pouch now makes the reload to come from the pouch rather than the barrel, then it would follow that time spent in the shooter's hand makes the reload come from the hand, rather than the barrel. For example, a shooter grabs a mag from the barrel and takes 5-6 steps away from the barrel before the mag finally makes it into the gun, is that a reload from the barrel or from the hand? What is to differentiate that from a shooter who grabs a mag from the barrel, takes 1 or more shots with his loaded gun before replacing the mag that is currently in the gun? Yep, another example of the devil being in the details.... You could probably write it up to force that -- ammunition to be reloaded into a fire arm must not be retrieved until there is a need to perform a reload, and must upon retrieval from the barrel be inserted immediately into the gun, before another round is fired/step is taken/more than 2 seconds pass/the RO keels over..... But all of that specificity creates other headaches, and potentially sucks some fun out of the stage/match..... Best to specify starting positions/conditions, and then let the competitors solve the problem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If retrieved from a barrel and stored in a mag pouch until used for a reload, they still 'came from the barrel'. Right? Yes, by proxy, but that stipulation was that it was to "only" come from the barrel, not from any other location. My problem with this is it doesn't stipulate if mags are bumped and knocked to the ground, will retrieving them require you to put them back on the barrel and then loading them or not. When the WSB gets too detailed on a freestyle CoF, I start to worry. We all see the intention here but it was just done in the wrong manner. All the mags only came off the barrel -- the shooter didn't start with any on his body..... :ph34r: Didn't it say that all reloads "must" come from the barrels? If you put them in your pouch, now they came from your pouch. Did I miss your point? And the reloads did -- by way of a stop in the mag pouch -- but they were retrieved from a barrel, at some point before reloaded into the gun.... The devil's in the details..... That's funny And I came from my mama but I don't tell everyone that when they ask me where did I come from <br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now