shred Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Anybody else check out the Guga Ribas ad on P42 of the Jul/Aug Front Sight? update: or see http://www.gugaribas.com/Ingles/HP_Prod_capa_coldre.asp They're making a gun cover that fits over the holstered pistol. The idea is that you can then 'safely' (as-in "not-touching it") remove the whole cover+gun+holster assembly and bag whereever you like. I thought we previously determined that this was Unsafe Gun Handling, no matter how big a mitten either I or the holstered pistol wears? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerjg Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 It looks kind of frutti. i wouldnt be caught dead wearing that thing around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I thought we previously determined that this was Unsafe Gun Handling, no matter how big a mitten either I or the holstered pistol wears? I thought we previously determined that this was NOT Unsafe Gun Handling if it stays in the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9429 Amidon ruled that removing holster+belt+gun is UGH already. It's long been possible to slip a bag over a holstered pistol and remove it while anywhere behind the line, yet nobody does it. Why is that? And, what's to stop somebody from making a transparent one of these and waving the gun+holster all over the crowd since it's now "bagged". Any objections to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 I could not find the ruling alleged to Mr. Amidon. All I found was where IPSCDRL said: I seem to remember John Amidon making an official declaration (for USPSA) that this type of behavior is a no no in Front Sight some time back. Anyone else remember the column? I'll try to dig through my old copies of FS for it. In that topic, I saw a lot of proposal for rules, but I've yet to see anyone make even a half-a**ed case for how it's different to have a gun in a gun rug vs. in a holster in your hand (and that would probably be because it's not different). So if you know where the Amidon ruling can be found, please let me know. Until then, I will continue removing my gun in its holster from my belt after a match and replacing my carring gun in its holster on my belt before I go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 Duh, it's in Front Sight. Ignorance is no excuse Googling for "Amidon holster belt" got me this page, that apparently has been in force since 1990 or so (hence the 'buckle' reference). There is a more recent, and very similar ruling involving velcro belts, somewhere. WHEN IS A HOLSTER NOT A SAFETY DEVICE? There has recently been a lot of discussion about competitors who bag their guns without removing them from the holster. They simply loosen the buckle and slip off the holster, gun and all, and place it in a gun bag. In the past this activity was allowed, but it should no longer be tolerated and will be considered unsafe gun-handling. The main reason for this change is that there is so little cause for creating the appearance of, or perhaps creating a real hazard with this behavior. If you don t want to carry the gun around in a holster, why not ask the RO to let you bag it on the line? Why not go to a safety area to bag the gun? Another reason is that a holster, when properly worn, covers the pistols trigger and controls where the pistol is pointing. When held in ones hand, holsters do allow guns to be pointed at spectators, competitors and in unsafe directions. Modern holsters being what they are, one might even be able to field strip the gun without drawing it. Enforcement of this change should begin at the local club level with strong warnings and reminders so that shooters can learn new habits. Let s not DQ the first guy we catch...let s give everyone a chance to get used to a better way of bagging the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 i have one of these holsters, i like it a lot. however, i never trusted the thumb bolt system so i loctited down and bag the gun the regular way. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Thanks for the info shred ... 1990 is five years before I started shooting! Given that, in my opinion that "ruling" is ... just stupid. Heck, a holster is even safer than a gun rug because the trigger guard is protected. Stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 here's my review i did several months ago. fwiw http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=9610&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 DAMN, I haven't even gotten my July/August issue yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Is walking to the safety area before manipulating one's gun really putting someone out? I can't freaking believe we have to have this discussion. I don't see too many folks at IPSC matches, myself included, who couldn't use the exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Reading through this thread I was getting confused as to whether removing the gun/holster combo is or isn't allowed. Clearly, lots of folks don't like the idea, but I was looking for a ruling so I would know whether it is in fact a DQ. Checking our new and wonderfully watermarked but not yet official rules posted at USPSA.org, I read the following: "5.2.1 -- Carry and Storage -- Except within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a case, gun bag, or holster (see rule 10.5.1)." "US5.2.2 -- Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be decocked. Anyone found in voilation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety are where appropriate corrective action shall be made." A search of the current 14th Edition rules for any similar guidelines came up empty. I confess that many times I have pulled my holster and gun off as a unit and put them in my range bag. I only do this with the more traditional dead-animal-skin types, or a kydex version of the same. Only recently have I gone back to even owning a race rig, and as a personal choice I don't think I would try bagging a holstered gun with that particular setup. I am very concious of the muzzle and try to be respectful of other's feelings when doing this. In fact, very few people have ever even been aware of the action, and if at all, not until after it was completed (Hey, where's your gun?"). Mark R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Is walking to the safety area before manipulating one's gun really putting someone out? I can't freaking believe we have to have this discussion. I don't see too many folks at IPSC matches, myself included, who couldn't use the exercise. That's way beside the point. There is no difference (other than psychological on some people's minds) between carrying a gun in a gun rug in your hand and carrying it in a proper holster in your hand. Any distinction between the two is artificial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 There is a difference and it isn't artificial. One is an object from which we withdraw loaded weapons and shoot targets. The other is an object in which we carry unloaded weapons. Mingling the two is a bad idea. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 I'll throw in my $0.02 ... If you want to be truly safe, go shoot in a squirt-pistol league. We, as gun-owners, have many things to be concerned about. Not the least-of-which is how we are perceived by the normals. Not to mention, even as an avid gun person, I really don't care to look down the bbl of a pistol holstered in a shoulder rig on the guy in front of me (obviously, not at a match). The way I see it, we should count ourselves lucky that we can even walk around with holstered guns ... as opposed to bagged until it's your turn. We need to do everything we can to prevent accidents ... even one can be extremely devastating ... and not just to the person(s) directly involved. It's true that a gun in a bag is no safer, necessarily, than in the holster ... or even the hand ... so long as it's unloaded. But, as the 1st rule states, NEVER point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy ... regardless of whether it's unloaded. Why? 'Cause most people shot by accident were shot by "unloaded" guns. We don't follow rules 'cause they necessarily make sense ... we follow 'em to improve our odds of success. Bottom-line is, if you get 50-60 people together ... all wearin' pistols ... and you don't have good rules ... someone, at some point, is gonna screw up. I've seen pistols dropped ... I've seen 'em drawn (when not appropriate) ... I've seen ammo in the wrong area ... I've one guy pull the trigger on the "gun clear, hammer down" command and plant one in the ground a few feet in front of himself. If it weren't for the seriousness of these offenses, what is deemed safe enough moves further towards the wrong end of the spectrum. What I'd like to know is this ... In what way does "bagging" a pistol, OUTSIDE the safe-area or on a firing-line under the direction of an RO, improve the safety and reputation of our organization? Besides, you can do what I did the other day ROing ... let multiple people bag 'em at once on the line. Otherwise, each person would be no more under the direction of an RO if they were in the safe area. And, sometimes the safe area is a ways away. Contrary to Eric's point, it's not so much the exercise as that the safe area is sometimes much closer to the parking lot and we have enough trouble getting people to help tear-down. And, besides myself, I'd prefer to see people help tear-down without wearing their pistols ... anyhow, no one wants to scratch their prized possession on a hunk of rebar just 'cause the safe area is a couple hundred yards away. If anything, I'd rather see a rule sayin' something about how no competitor is allowed to leave the last stage until the last shooter has shot it ... excluding, of course, notes from your Dr. or your Momma. I certainly don't mean to suggest that anyone who has a contrary opinion is less informed or less safe. I just see no reason to push the limits of what's acceptable into that direction ... not considering the alternatives we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 If the safe area is too far away, you might try adding some more safe area's if your range allows. There should be a rule if there isn't prohibiting bagging the gun/holster together. I agree with Deuce, it may not actually be any less safe, but it certainly could be perceived that way to others. Especially newbies or non-shooter spectators. It isn't that difficult to go to the safe area to bag. That's what they are there for. If they are really too far away, then more should be built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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