DQ Question 10.5.9

[ktm300]

for perspective...

Sarge, When he pulled the trigger and it didn't go bang is that not a malf?

In Steel Challenge, we allow for an "alibi". ...which is a reshoot for a malfunction. We don't count not putting ammo in the chamber as a malfunction. That is covered under brain fart...no alibi. (not sure that is in the glossary. LOL)

So in your opinion, is racking the slide after the brain fart reloading?

[aztecdriver]

for perspective...

Sarge, When he pulled the trigger and it didn't go bang is that not a malf?

In Steel Challenge, we allow for an "alibi". ...which is a reshoot for a malfunction. We don't count not putting ammo in the chamber as a malfunction. That is covered under brain fart...no alibi. (not sure that is in the glossary. LOL)

Flex, Not sure I'm seeing this - reading the SCSA rulebook - if a gun malfunctions - the string is scored, you can go fix it and come back. If I'm missing something outside of 5.4, I don't see a reshoot for any string outside of REF, and essentially, that's the timer peuked.

[Flexmoney]

for perspective...

Sarge, When he pulled the trigger and it didn't go bang is that not a malf?

In Steel Challenge, we allow for an "alibi". ...which is a reshoot for a malfunction. We don't count not putting ammo in the chamber as a malfunction. That is covered under brain fart...no alibi. (not sure that is in the glossary. LOL)

Flex, Not sure I'm seeing this - reading the SCSA rulebook - if a gun malfunctions - the string is scored, you can go fix it and come back. If I'm missing something outside of 5.4, I don't see a reshoot for any string outside of REF, and essentially, that's the timer peuked.

I'd have to dig up the napkin the rules were copied onto. (I haven't looked at the current rule book for SC.)

[Flexmoney]

for perspective...

Sarge, When he pulled the trigger and it didn't go bang is that not a malf?

In Steel Challenge, we allow for an "alibi". ...which is a reshoot for a malfunction. We don't count not putting ammo in the chamber as a malfunction. That is covered under brain fart...no alibi. (not sure that is in the glossary. LOL)

So in your opinion, is racking the slide after the brain fart reloading?

Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional

ammunition into a firearm.

I do consider racking the slide as part of reloading. I do think there should be a DQ for having the finger in the trigger guard while doing so. I also see where there is room for arbitrating such a call.

[pjb45]

The slide not locking back is not a malfunction.

In order for a bullet to be fired from the pistol, it must be loaded into the chamber/barrel.

To me, the definition of loaded does not stop once the magazine is in the gun. The act of loading, reloading and unloading consist of the magazine and rounds being included in each aspect.

[whitedog]

I'm not 100% sure what the rule is supposed to mean, those more experienced than me can work that out. To me if there is a bullet in the gun, in any manner, it is loaded. In mag. In chamber. Same to me. Don't see a gray area as to what a loaded gun is. Someone explain if I'm wrong please.

[aztecdriver]

The slide not locking back is not a malfunction.

In order for a bullet to be fired from the pistol, it must be loaded into the chamber/barrel.

To me, the definition of loaded does not stop once the magazine is in the gun. The act of loading, reloading and unloading consist of the magazine and rounds being included in each aspect.

Which rule are you using to interpret your opinion? Let's take this to another logical direction - any time you are racking the slide you are loading the gun - when then would the exception to 10.5.8 ever come into play? Again, if I put a mag in the gun - re-present to the target and attempt to pull the trigger - THEN pull the slide back - did I ever stop loading the gun, or did the act of loading "PAUSE" then continue when I racked the slide. How does one discern this difference based on the rules?

My answer is you can't. The slide not locking back may not be a malfunction - but I would argue that the gun NOT having a round in the chamber is... Whether it was because of fail to feed or because there was nothing there to feed in the first place - and I've given you an example of that happening.

[pjb45]

The rules around 8.1 talk about the ready condition. WSB can require a mag in the gun but no rounds in the chamber.

The chamber must have (at least in my world) a round in order to fire the bullet. So putting a round in the chamber constitutes loading the gun as does putting a mag in a gun.

It is not a gun malfunction if the shooter fails to seat the magazine fully and drops the hammer on an empty chamber. In my case it was shooter error.

Appendix A 3 defines a loaded gun as having a round in the chamber,.....magazine inserted in the gun. Loaded can be one of three conditions; round in chamber, round in magazine, round in magazine & chamber.

The putting the round in the chamber is loading.

[Nik Habicht]

pjb45,

so how is the slide not being racked upon a reload different from the slide cycling, but not picking up a round from the magazine? In both cases the shooter's going through the same physical motions to run the slide.....

Once we incorporate the glossary definition of reloading -- which is silent on chambering -- I think we're left with 10.5.8, which, for consistency's sake is probably as it should be....

[Schutzenmeister]

Ughh...

Yes it's perfectly OK to say finger.

It's just not good RO practice to let DQ offenses slide.

"Finger" and "Muzzle" may be part of the IDPA program, but they are not range commands and have no place in USPSA. If you are ROing me and I engage in unsafe gun-handling by having my finger in the trigger guard at the wrong time, or if I allow the muzzle to break the 180, you should yell "Stop" and immediately DQ my ass. Because you're exactly correct in saying it's not good RO practice to let DQ offenses slide.

If it's not a DQ situation, you need to keep quiet and not distract me when I'm shooting my stage.

Mike ... Sorry, but you've been around the sport long enough you should know this one. Please reread 8.6.1. "Finger" or "muzzle" would be allowable warnings for the RO to give the shooter during a CoF. It generally indicates the RO is quite concerned you're about to commit a DQ'able offense and he's trying to put you on notice. All perfectly legit ... Many ROs (including me) would rather warn a shooter in time to get him to wake up rather than to simply wait for him to actually DO something unsafe and send him to the showers. I will admit I'm more prone to give such a warning at lower level matches. By the time one is shooting the Nationals, they should be somewhat more "aware."

[LPatterson]

I have been accused of being a curmudgeon and lots of other things but once we start getting away from exact wording of range commands we are opening the door to all kinds of problems. An example would be to yell finger to a non american english speaking shooter and have them turn and ask in a non english language what you are yelling about.

As for the question presented by the OP, send the shooter out for ice cream. The rule is to keep the bugger hook out of the trigger guard when moving, loading/reloading or clearing a malfunction.

[ima45dv8]

I have been accused of being a curmudgeon and lots of other things but once we start getting away from exact wording of range commands we are opening the door to all kinds of problems. An example would be to yell finger to a non american english speaking shooter and have them turn and ask in a non english language what you are yelling about.

As for the question presented by the OP, send the shooter out for ice cream. The rule is to keep the bugger hook out of the trigger guard when moving, loading/reloading or clearing a malfunction.

You curmudgeonly old fart!

I mostly agree with you. Where does that put me?

10.5.8 is a very "iffy" hall pass for (from) me. Let that gun drop below line of sight/aiming at the targets while addressing an immediate action drill with your finger in the trigger guard and it's as LP said -- a trip to Dairy Queen for a frosty treat.

I've seen precious few competitors able to keep the gun up that high while clearing a jam -- usually an Open shooter who's had far too much experience with their particular FTF Jam-o-matic. A slide racker and a very light recoil spring are particularly beneficial at that moment.

*And for those that will argue they were still aiming at the targets after dropping the gun to clear a jam, once I see it I may not agree.

Simple answer -- learn the discipline. If you ain't shooting, get your finger out of the trigger guard, regardless of what other activity you're engaged in.

See? No problem...

[aztecdriver]

The rules around 8.1 talk about the ready condition. WSB can require a mag in the gun but no rounds in the chamber.

The chamber must have (at least in my world) a round in order to fire the bullet. So putting a round in the chamber constitutes loading the gun as does putting a mag in a gun.

It is not a gun malfunction if the shooter fails to seat the magazine fully and drops the hammer on an empty chamber. In my case it was shooter error.

Appendix A 3 defines a loaded gun as having a round in the chamber,.....magazine inserted in the gun. Loaded can be one of three conditions; round in chamber, round in magazine, round in magazine & chamber.

The putting the round in the chamber is loading.

I've reviewed what you posted here. I don't see the ready conditions as having relevance here. The key thing here is the definitions. While having a loaded firearm might have some relevance - you are looking at an action. The rule you are contesting 10.5.9 states loading, unloading or reloading. Those are actions. Which leaves us with the definition of loading, which states, "The insertion of ammunition into the firearm." Per your quoting of the rules - the firearm is loaded after the magazine is inserted, correct? So by racking the firearm - I'm still loading? But the firearm was already loaded? No where in the definition of loading does it say anything about chambering a round. I've got a great argument for an arbitration.

I'd still also argue that a shooter error induced malfunction is STILL a malfunction. It's something I must deal with to continue the COF that isn't shooting. Just because a shooter induced an issue - it's still an issue.

Let's say the gun is at slide lock and I need that last round. I hit the reload and as I'm extending on the target I put my finger in the trigger and thumb the slide release with my weak hand and instant bang happens as it's going into battery. -- what is the difference between this and me doing the same thing racking the slide? According to your interpretation I'm still reloading and I should be DQ'd.

[aztecdriver]

10.5.8 is a very "iffy" hall pass for (from) me. Let that gun drop below line of sight/aiming at the targets while addressing an immediate action drill with your finger in the trigger guard and it's as LP said -- a trip to Dairy Queen for a frosty treat.

I've seen precious few competitors able to keep the gun up that high while clearing a jam -- usually an Open shooter who's had far too much experience with their particular FTF Jam-o-matic. A slide racker and a very light recoil spring are particularly beneficial at that moment.

Simple answer -- learn the discipline. If you ain't shooting, get your finger out of the trigger guard, regardless of what other activity you're engaged in.

See? No problem...

This I wholeheartedly agree with. Still and all, I've seen people reload then in one smooth motion begin their extension, sling shot the slide and shoot that last round they needed for a malfunction or makeup they weren't expecting - most times strong hand only on a close target. For those situations, I believe that's why the rule is stated the way it is...

[ima45dv8]

Still and all, I've seen people reload then in one smooth motion begin their extension, sling shot the slide and shoot that last round they needed for a malfunction or makeup they weren't expecting - most times strong hand only on a close target. For those situations, I believe that's why the rule is stated the way it is...

Do that slingshot of the slide while extending the gun, with your finger in the trigger guard, and we may (OK...will) have an 'issue'.

[aztecdriver]

Still and all, I've seen people reload then in one smooth motion begin their extension, sling shot the slide and shoot that last round they needed for a malfunction or makeup they weren't expecting - most times strong hand only on a close target. For those situations, I believe that's why the rule is stated the way it is...

Do that slingshot of the slide while extending the gun, with your finger in the trigger guard, and we may (OK...will) have an 'issue'.

And thumbing the slide release is different? And, fer the record, I ain't saying I'm going to do it - I ain't that coordinated...

Edited February 14, 2012 by aztecdriver

[JThompson]

I have spend some time searching but not finding so here is the question.

I saw a shooter run his gun empty and the slide did not lock back. He put a mag in it but did not rack the slide. Pulled the trigger, of course nothing happend. With finger still in the trigger guard and close to, if not on, the trigger he racks the slide. The gun was pointed over the targets but in their general direction.

So is the act of racking the slide reloading? Kind of seems like it to me but I am pretty new at this game.

If so is he a DQ?

5.7.3 While rectifying a malfunction that requires the competitor to clearly

move the handgun away from aiming at a target, the competitor’s fingers

must be clearly outside the trigger guard (see Rule 10.5.8).

So, if it's on target no foul, if it's CLEARLY not on target then DQ

[pjb45]

Appendix 3

Loaded Firearm = A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

Loading = the insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Loading as defined by Appendix 3 is not limited to just inserting the magazine (which has a live or dummy round) into the firearm.

The act of the slide cycling and putting a round in the chamber also defines or results in a Loaded Firearm.

The issue is the impetus for loading; mechanical or manual.

If the mechanical action (the gun cycling as a result of the normal action of firing a round) fails to properly load the chamber then this could be a malfunction of the normal action of the firearm.

If the manual action (the shooter manually cycling the gun) is intended to create a loaded firearm (by definition means loading) has his finger in the trigger guard would invoke 5.7.3 or 10.5.8.

Edited February 14, 2012 by pjb45

[ima45dv8]

Still and all, I've seen people reload then in one smooth motion begin their extension, sling shot the slide and shoot that last round they needed for a malfunction or makeup they weren't expecting - most times strong hand only on a close target. For those situations, I believe that's why the rule is stated the way it is...

Do that slingshot of the slide while extending the gun, with your finger in the trigger guard, and we may (OK...will) have an 'issue'.

And thumbing the slide release is different? And, fer the record, I ain't saying I'm going to do it - I ain't that coordinated...

I would still want to see the fingers out of the trigger guard if the slide release is thumbed while not aiming at targets.

[aztecdriver]

I would still want to see the fingers out of the trigger guard if the slide release is thumbed while not aiming at targets.

And we're absolutely saying the same thing there...

[aztecdriver]

Appendix 3

Loaded Firearm = A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

Loading = the insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Loading as defined by Appendix 3 is not limited to just inserting the magazine (which has a live or dummy round) into the firearm.

The act of the slide cycling and putting a round in the chamber also defines or results in a Loaded Firearm.

The issue is the impetus for loading; mechanical or manual.

If the mechanical action (the gun cycling as a result of the normal action of firing a round) fails to properly load the chamber then this could be a malfunction of the normal action of the firearm.

If the manual action (the shooter manually cycling the gun) is intended to create a loaded firearm (by definition means loading) has his finger in the trigger guard would invoke 5.7.3 or 10.5.8.

I hear what you are saying - I'm just saying you can't link the two definitions like your trying to do - as an example of what you are saying, I've highlighted in bold above. The gun IS loaded once the magazine is in the gun. I've CREATED, to use your word, a loaded gun the moment I inserted the magazine.

By what you are saying above - I, as an RO, have to deem what a malfunction is and isn't - whether it was induced or not by the shooter - and I don't think that has a place.

Manual action is required to clear a malfunction. Manual action is required to put a round in the chamber. Having different standards for the same manual action (racking the slide), where in one instance, it's called loading and in another instance it's called clearing a malfunction seems to be an unnecessary burden on the RO. If I can point the gun at a target and "click" on on dead primer, NOT move the gun away keep my finger on the trigger and reach up, run the slide, and then fire - and be legal, there should be NO difference between that and a someone who runs the gun empty, reloads, points the gun at the target, "click" on an empty chamber, NOT move the gun away and keep their finger on the trigger, run the slide and fire.

I'm not saying that it is something I prefer, but it is something the rules currently require. As you are positioning it - there is a difference between the two situations and one is a DQ and the other, by rule, is not. I'm advocating that whether we like the fact or not, the rules allow me to do either of the instances above.

Edited February 14, 2012 by aztecdriver

[jar]

"Finger" and "Muzzle" may be part of the IDPA program, but they are not range commands and have no place in USPSA. If you are ROing me and I engage in unsafe gun-handling by having my finger in the trigger guard at the wrong time, or if I allow the muzzle to break the 180, you should yell "Stop" and immediately DQ my ass. Because you're exactly correct in saying it's not good RO practice to let DQ offenses slide.

If it's not a DQ situation, you need to keep quiet and not distract me when I'm shooting my stage.

Whether and how I'll use Finger or Muzzle depends on match level and shooter experience. With a new shooter at a level 1, I'll yell Muzzle if they start to move toward doing something unsafe, like turning the wrong way. With a clearly experienced shooter, I'm not going to yell at them if they're purposely engaging a target at 179.99.

For me, Finger comes in to play when I'm not sure whether the finger is in the trigger guard or not. There have been plenty of times where a shooter's finger gets a bit lazy and seems like it's probably out of the guard, but not clearly out and indexed along the frame. I don't *know* the finger is in the guard, so I can't issue a DQ, but I'd rather not do nothing.

[Sarge]

oops.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Sarge

[Sarge]

In the case of safety commands I don't want to hear anything while I'm shooting so I tend to stay quiet while ROing.

Now, I will pull a shooter aside after he shoots and tell him I could not ell for sure if your finger was in the trigger guard. In the future keep it straight so there is no question. Or words to that effect.

Also as far as 180 stuff I will never yell "muzzle". I will either shut the hell up and tell him later, "Watch the 180 because you got pretty close on target X" Or I will yell "stop". No question there.

On a more experienced shooter I won't even mention anything he almost did. I almost break the 180 occasionally myself but I know it already.

[Sarge]

Mike ... Sorry, but you've been around the sport long enough you should know this one. Please reread 8.6.1. "Finger" or "muzzle" would be allowable warnings for the RO to give the shooter during a CoF. It generally indicates the RO is quite concerned you're about to commit a DQ'able offense and he's trying to put you on notice. All perfectly legit ... Many ROs (including me) would rather warn a shooter in time to get him to wake up rather than to simply wait for him to actually DO something unsafe and send him to the showers. I will admit I'm more prone to give such a warning at lower level matches. By the time one is shooting the Nationals, they should be somewhat more "aware."

You are talking apples and oranges. You are saying to give warnings BEFORE the shooter commits an act to help prevent a DQ. If he obviously violates a rule do you still give a warning or do you call stop?

I don't say anything to a shooter while shooting especially if they are new. Hasn't anybody ever yelled something to a new guy and have him stop and wonder whats going on. Then you have to tell him to keep going. Hell, then you have actually assisted the shooter.