Marketing NRA AP

[Chuck Anderson]

So the last topic that was closed got me thinking. How can we help the NRA market AP better? I talked to Flex and he agreed to let me open this thread. It will remain open as long as we have constructive suggestions on how to better AP. As soon as it devolves into a bitch session about the NRA or anyone in particular it's gone. What I'd like to do is keep it going for a month or two and then get one of the members here who will be...uh, better received than me, to forward the suggestions to the NRA. What I'm thinking is specific items on how to better utilize social media and forum sites, like the ideas that were suggested on thread topics, to just about anything anyone can think of to promote the sport.

Thoughts?

[Beladran]

It's a tough pitch in my state(ms) uspsa and icore rule the roost here.

I am a moderator for www.msgunowners.com with 3000 members. We constantly makes plugs an I will personally pay match fee's for new shooters and still get 6-8 shooters each match. I'm also the assistant match director so im gonna be watching this topic closely for ideas.

[kimmbeckwith]

Well Chuck, I think some of the problem is that other pistol sports want NRA to change to adopt their rules on different firearms. The NRA has done that in the production class, trying to include shooters just starting out in AP. The NRA was handed the Bianchi Cup by John Bianchi and wants to keep his original ideas alive. This used to be a match for the .45, but that has long since passed.

I will tell you the problem we had at our club and the demise of AP. We had at that time three high masters in our club that had done very well at Columbia. The people just starting out realized just how hard this sport was compared to other shooting sports. AP is very accuracy driven with speed. We tried to encourage them and tell them that this took a little work to get to that level. I really think they first thought it was the guns we were shooting (open guns), so at one of our matches we told them we would shoot their guns and they could shoot ours. They found out open gun were a challenge too. We had told them open guns are easier to shoot once you have mastered them, but that takes time too. But all that was before the production class and the club voted to go to IDPA style shooting. I am the only AP shooter at our range. We did get one of our IDPA shooters from another town that regularly shoots with us to go last year to the Cup, so maybe production class will change that. But we have the same problem there; we also have now one of the top 5 metallic shooters (Troy Mettheyer) that comes down from Ellis and he shoots production really well too. I just think sometime new shooters don't realize the dedication and practice it takes to be that good.

I have had one shooter that started out and move up to high master in a little over three years (Justin Blackburn). He shot two 1920's in fact at the Bianchi Cup, but he has since moved away and does not shoot AP anymore.

Ranges: Building three of the four ranges for AP cost some money. I built my first place rack, barricades, and mover at my expense on our club range. It would have never been done otherwise. Now we have two plate racks, did have two movers when the club was active in AP and two barricades to shoot from. The practical range was never a problem, they cost little to build. So expense is a little of it.

But, I still get back to: IT IS A HARD MATCH TO SHOOT!!

An average shooter just can't pick up a pistol, dust it off and shoot once a month with no practice and expect to shoot above 70%, it is just not going to happen.

Kim

[remoandiris]

I think the NRA could attack the issue on 2 fronts; 1., show how much fun NRA AP is to shoot and 2., provide some type of financial incentive for clubs to buy/build the hardware needed to start NRA AP matches. How much of an incentive would depend on how many NRA-affiliated clubs are willing/able to commit to put on the match.

I have never shot an NRA AP match. To me, they look boring...too much like bullseye with a little movement. If a match was in my area, I could be convinced to give it a try and stick with it if I like it.

[jar]

I think the problem with AP is that there are very few club matches. I don't know of any in my area, and I could shoot IDPA or USPSA almost every weekend day within a 2 hour drive. There are probably several reasons there aren't many club matches:

1. AP is hard. The C/D/SS/MM shooters that put in a ton of the work to put on USPSA/IDPA matches would be too frustrated.

2. Start up costs are high. Plates and movers are pretty expensive, so it's hard to start a club match without dedicated shooters. It's hard to find dedicated shooters without club matches to recruit them. I think this catch 22 is the biggest problem.

3. Shooting the same stages each month gets boring.

I don't know that there's any way to fix this. I think production division was a great addition to keep the big match alive, but I'm not sure growing the grassroots is possible without changing what Bianchi is about.

[Chuck Anderson]

I guess I'm a bit wired wrong in the head. I always thought hard was a good thing. The way I put AP forth to shooters is as a benefit to the other shooting sports. I use AP as a way to work on my accuracy for USPSA/Multigun. As an example of this you can look at the FB3G match this year. They stuck a plate rack at 35 yards (ish?). Tony Holmes and I smoked it. Many other shooters had...issues. Learning how to squeeze accuracy out of your gun and yourself will always be a good thing. I like shooting the same courses every month. Same as when I shoot GSSF or Steel Challenge. The nice thing (at least for me) is the ability to compare apples to apples. I can look at my performance from Jan-Feb-Mar and see the improvement each month. Especially for me starting out. It's cool to gain 100 points in a month.

For the matches I run we only shoot the Falling Plates, Practical and Barricade. I was able to rebuild 4 of our really old Bianchi Barridaces relatively inexpensively. The USPSA group already had a plate rack I talked them into a couple years back for GSSF and the Practical doesn't require anything other than distance. We just set up all three stages in the same bay, side by side. Shoot the plates, then barricade, then pracitcal (or whatever order). Minimizes our footprint at the club. And since we're only getting 1-6 shooters per match it's not that big of a delay. We run 3 at a time on the Practical. Don't get a mover to start. It's not that big of a deal. That was one of my concerns starting out was how difficult it would be to put a mover out there. I actually got plans for one off this forum if I really wanted to, but haven't needed to. If your guys are concerned about the mover and going to Bianchi, tell them not to worry. I actually talked to Bruce Piatt a couple years ago about which mover he uses to practice on at home. He doesn't have one. He practices in Columbia the couple days before the Cup. I just don't see it as that difficult to learn in a fairly short time frame. And thats only if you're really set on going to the Cup.

As far as trying to force the NRA to use the rules for Production from other sports. It has nothing to do (at least with me) with trying to get commonality between the sports. It has everything to do with watching the NRA make the same mistakes that USPSA/IPSC did when forming a new division. Wording in the rules that isn't clear about sights or barrels. We've already gone through that. I'm not telling/asking them to use USPSA rules. But I've been down the exact same road they are driving now. If they want Production different than USPSA fine, that's cool. But when they have to issue a ruling before every Cup clarifying something, whether its aftermarket barrels, or sights, or whatever this will be that's not good. When that ruling is in direct conflict with the actual rule that's really not good.

From what I've seen the NRA does a pretty good job on Facebook. Their website seems a bit rough. As mentioned previously in the other thread I think the NRA could do a better job titling their threads on this forum, an easy fix. Does anyone else have difficulty viewing the threads and finding specific info? Is it just me and I should shut up?

[Allgoodhits]

There has been much discussion about NRA AP, what is broken, what is right across the various gun divisions, COF's and the like. For me it comes down to several things.

As Kim said, NRA is perceived as hard. Yes it is hard to run with the big dogs, but isn't it also hard to run with the big dogs in IDPA, USPSA, Bullseye and PPC? Certainly it is. All of our shooting games are domintaed by the few big dogs. I think NRA AP lacks the excitement that "most" want out of shooting today. Bullesye and PPC also lack that excitement to the shooters of today. Keep in mind many of the younger shooters, unlike me, grew up on video games!

There are so many "things" going on in IDPA and USPSA that are stimulating to the participant. The COF, the props, the movement, no shoots and on and on. Maybe worth mentioning is that at an IDPA or USPSA type shoot, one can "look good" as they go through the COF, yet when the results are posted, the performance may not have been so good. I think this plays a role in the fun, as the participant is having fun, just shooting. Og course the big dogs or those in the hunt may be keeping track of their performance as they shoot the stages. In NRA AP, unfortunately the score from event to event is well planted in your mind, even though it shouldn't be.

The season. The NRA AP program was sprung from the Bianchi Cup. The BC was a totally separate stand alone match held the week before Memorial Day. My first was 1981. When the NRA took over, they kept the date the same. Perhaps, by agreement perhaps due to conflicts with other NRA competitions. Many forget, the NRA runs many different shooting disciplines through out the year in addition to Bianchi. The BC is the National Championship, yet it is held early in the season. For many the BC is the first match of the year. Some feel depending on how they do at Bianchi may determine what they do the rest of the year. For me, the rest of the year is so much better. I seem to find gremlins in Columbia that leave me alone elsewhere. After the Nationals, the remainder of the season may be anticlimatic for many. In other words the regular season follows the nationals, instead of the other way around. Changing dates have been discussed, but there are many logistical reasons why doing such would be a problem.

All things considered the NRA has kept it alive. Had they not stepped up with support, money and promotion it would have died a decade ago. Tom Hughes and company have brought some new life into it, so let's build on the new life and set aside the other parts. Personally, I think NRA AP is an outstanding blend of accuracy and speed. Learn to shoot AP well, and you likely can hold your own at a BE, PPC or IDPA match whereas those others may not crossover as well going to Bianchi.

Cheers,

MJ

[Chuck Anderson]

So no offense intended, but I get that it's a hard match. I don't think anyone is suggesting, even a little bit, that we make the match easier. (Although I think the AP-1 targets did a pretty good job of that) So knowing that it's a difficult match and that it's not for everyone, how do we, or NRA sell the match. Not just the Cup, but AP at all levels.

This is something we struggle with in USPSA. We have the Nationals and our rules and support must reflect the level of that match. We also have a lot of smaller matches, from Area matches to club matches. The rules have to work equally well for club matches and Nationals. We draw most of our support for Nationals from these club to Area matches. Of the 20,000 USPSA members out there the vast majority will never shoot a National Championship. It seems a little different for NRA AP. There seem to be a fair number of people that shoot the Bianchi Cup that never shoot a club match. There also don't seem to be a lot (there are some, but certainly not thousands) that shoot locally but not at the Cup.

As it stands now, NRA has pretty much maxed out the current capability for the Bianchi Cup. I know they were close last year (at least they said they were) to not allowing multi gun entries. We are pretty close to reaching the capacity for Bianchi unless changes are made. While I think it would be great if the NRA went back to this being an invitational for the best of the best and it was a true world class championship I'm not sure that would be best for the sport. It certainly wouldn't be the best for me since I wasn't invited this year at all.

It seems that the Cup thrives based in large part on the massive prize table/cash awards put forth. For the number of shooters involved I've never seen more loot at any event. Seems like a fair number of folks come out for that. NRA also does a great job with the festivities surrounding the match. BBQ, Dinners, Social gatherings etc. Rarely seen at other practical shooting events. Very well done.

What would help local matches get off the ground and act as feeders?

NRA Grants for target systems, plate racks and Movers? Bianchi Barricades?

A dedicated website/forum to NRA AP? I know I had a tough time finding info on the NRA site because they have so much going on.

Additional courses of fire to aleviate the boredom? I know there are a few additional courses. I've never set them up because it doesn't bore me but I heard that.

I think the divisions now are well laid out. A Production gun will normally work for Production, a Limited gun will normally work for Metallic and although a USPSA Open gun won't be ideal it will work OK for everything but the barricade. Would a "Level 1" or whatever exemption for equipment rules help? I've had some Production shooters show up with sub 3.5 pound triggers, we just put them in Metallic. But under 2lbs or a pinned grip safety and they are out. Does anyone allow folks to shoot for no score? Or at least no score submitted to the NRA?

I haven't pushed NRA AP locally because my travel schedule didn't allow me to really put on matches consistently month to month. I will be home this year and I'd like to get it up and running.

[bofe954]

I'd like to shoot some matches in Minnesota. In the winter here it is hard to shoot USPA because you are either indoors with range limitations, or outdoors with poor footing.

I'd shoot some AP matches to work on accuracy over the late fall, winter. I'd like to shoot the Bianchi just to see it, but I don't think I'd ever be real serious about it. Maybe when I am older.

Has there ever been any push to get AP matches in indoor ranges? Seems like it could work there.

The only other issue is the mover. The club I'm at currently has all the props but the mover. To me if the NRA wanted clubs to host AP matches and allow people to prepare for Bianchi, they should have some way to provide clubs with the moving target set up for a reasonable price.

Like I said, I've thought about preparing for Bianchi and going, but there is no way I'm going to bother if I can't practice every stage.

[DWFAN]

AP is hard (I know.. echo, echo, we all agree) and intimidating. There are quite a few people show up, trash all 4 events, and don't come back. It is a sport that you have to work at to get high scores. Those C/D/SS/MM shooters who shot AP and worked at it, wouldnt be C/D/SS/MM for very long. 6 months of good AP work could bump them 1 probably 2 classes, it did me. This is where the benefit to other games comes like you said, kind of like cross training if you will.

Things they need to promote better or think about changing which would help grow the local level and the Cup:

1. There are more than 4 COF's. Many that dont need a mover, or plate rack. You could probably go 2-3 months shooting new COF's even without a mover and or plate rack. A couple target stands, a barricade(s) and a timer. What USPSA/IDPA club doesnt have those 3 things? The most common thing missing is dedicated people willing to step up. Run some different ones at the CUP as side matches. The Barricade, Plate and Practical ranges are almost vacant on friday if I remember correctly..?

2. Promote Open-Mod division where you can shoot your USPSA open gun. (not currently available at the Cup, but if there were interest, maybe they would bring it back). Bring your gun out and shoot. I'm not sure how most clubs do it, but we dont check trigger pull, chrono, or safeties. If you like it and want to keep shooting, then by all means, put in a working grip safety, and make your trigger legal and shoot the Cup. I know a couple guys who made Master by shooting stock Tru-Bore's.

3. The trigger weight is a problem for some in production (quite a few in my area). A lot of people here shoot CZ's and the stock single action wont make weight. I would propose a modification to the limits (GASP.. even take on USPSA's pending but hopefully short lived trigger limit verbiage) or a separate weight for DA/SA guns. Again, not really an issue locally but if you want to shoot beyond local, it will have to be delt with.

4. I've noticed their Facebook promotions, looks good so far. I agree on the thread title issue. Their website also needs work. MORE useful info would be good. Where are local matches, where are regional matches? That info should be easily found on the NRA website, and it is not. Maybe a Match locator thread sticky here would be a start.

5. I would still like to see a 1 weekday shorter Bianchi Cup. I'm lucky I live so close, if I had 1 days worth of travel each way or more, it would be a harder decision to use almost half of my vacation on 1 match. I know moving the CUP from Columbia is Blasphemy is some circles, but larger venues capable of running more people in a shorter amount of time should be looked at. Tulsa comes to mind. (this could also impact certain sponsorships, which would also have to be considered)

Short of serious improvements/additions to the facility in columbia, which could be possible, I dont see how much more serious "growth" the Cup in Columbia has room for.

Finally.. Since clubs say the mover/bay dedication is a problem:

Maybe SFP's new mover set up will be a game changer for local clubs. Not sure if its out/ready yet, or if it's being shown at SHOT show.. It will still cost money, but clubs wont have to leave it out to get torn up, or dedicate a bay to a permanant set up. Maybe the NRA could purchase a couple and loan them out to test the waters at different local clubs.. or start running a GSSF type traveling match. Maybe NRA could offer Grants to help fund some of these to clubs who can show a serious attempt to run/promote/support a regular AP match ?

With the new Civilian PPC division under AP, even more options for running matches. Although with the long standing exclusion of Civilians from PPC, it may be to late for that sport.. who knows.

[g.willikers]

While the falling plates and the mover are the more entertaining courses of fire, there are another dozen in the rule book.

So, there's no need to do the same ones over and over.

And a set of falling plates is not that expensive, so there's one of the two most popular courses of fire.

And the rest are simple to set up and run.

There's a large potential group of folks, who might be very interested in AP, if it were available.

Older folks, who can't do the run 'n gun stuff any more or pull the trigger multi times per second.

AP is just about right, still fast enough to be entertaining, but without the physical requirements of the other games.

Imagine how many former uspsa competitors there must be, and probably idpa, by now, too.

Thousands, probably.

[Action Pistolero]

Nra does give money to clubs through a grant program. The club has to apply to NRA for it. This is the way the Bedford, VA club got its start.

Indoor matches are shot in Berrien Springs, MI, Oneida, NY and Kansas City.

The Production rules were changed to read that the trigger must pick up a 3.5 lb weight in the double action mode. No longer single action.

There are 17 different courses of fire. I would like to see different courses shot at Bianchi but I found out real quick that I am in the minority on that one. If you have anyone saying that AP is boring, set up the Advanced Military Pistol course and let them say that one is boring. 2.5 seconds to fire one shot at 25 yards and 1.5 seconds to fire one shot at 10 yards. That 4" x ring gets real small on that one. Then there is the 3 targets at 10 yards spaced 9 feet apart. Start facing 90 degrees from targets then draw and put 2 shots on each target in 4 seconds. If a shooter was to semi master all of the courses of fore they would make one hell of a shooter. These courses test all of the shooters skills. Strong hand, weak hand, the draw, reloading, shooting around a barricade, movers, shooting prone, shooting sitting and above all accuracy.

For new shooters, we don't enforce the trigger rule or the grip safety rule. If they don't have a holster or don't feel comfortable with it then they can start at a low ready. The scores are not sent in. This is used to suck them in and see how much fun it is.

The 22 class is the easiest and cheapest way to shoot the match. Who doesn't have a 22 laying around? There are 3 classes in the division just like centerfire. Open, Metallic and Production.

[shred]

Around here the nearest club shooting AP is a 2 hour drive, and last I was there, long ago, not very welcoming to new shooters, especially those that appeared with box-stock 'black' pistols.

If a closer club offered it, I'd try it again, but they seem to have nearly zero mind-share as far as pistol sports go locally. You'd think the NRA could put something in their magazine about it every so often, but I can't recall any 'getting started in AP' articles, ever.

[Chuck Anderson]

Around here the nearest club shooting AP is a 2 hour drive, and last I was there, long ago, not very welcoming to new shooters, especially those that appeared with box-stock 'black' pistols.

If a closer club offered it, I'd try it again, but they seem to have nearly zero mind-share as far as pistol sports go locally. You'd think the NRA could put something in their magazine about it every so often, but I can't recall any 'getting started in AP' articles, ever.

How long has it been? I think NRA has only had Production Division for 3-4 years now. I wonder if the mindset has changed a bit there.

When I started running my AP match at my local club I had no idea that another 30 minutes up the road they had been running one for years, just an unofficial one. Just happened they were shutting down from lack of participation.

I like the idea about a getting started in AP article. I'll email NRA on that one. What do you think about running the article in Front Sight? I've kicked the idea around of including mention of other non-USPSA sports in Front Sight. Not to dominate the magazine, but maybe one per. I'm a pretty firm believer that it really doesn't matter what sport people are shooting, as long as they are out shooting. Besides, they'll always come back to USPSA because we're the best (just kidding guys from every other shooting sport discipline) The coverage I see in American Rifleman alway seems fairly shallow, normally just covering Doug/Bruce, Vasdasz, and whoever pulled off the Production win. Maybe an article from my perspective, where I started in Production, set up my own match, and then moved to Metallic and Open.

[Chuck Anderson]

How many clubs shoot the .22 class? Are the rules the same as the centerfire divisions for Open/Metallic? I'd be interested in that myself.

[kimmbeckwith]

The Central Kansas Gun Club shoots .22. In fact we just had a .22 shooter move up to production!!!

[kimmbeckwith]

The Central Kansas Gun Club shoots .22. In fact we just had a .22 shooter move up to production!!!

[DWFAN]

We have quite a few new .22 shooters for out indoor matches. Some may stick with it when we go back out side, some will start back riding their Harley's and shoot less.

Virginia had quite a few .22 shooters at their Regional/State Match, so did Louisiana. I believe we may have had just a couple at our Regional, but didnt allow multi gun entries where the other matches did.

[GlockerJeff]

We have a 22 class here in Berrien Springs, Michigan for our regional out door in May and for our winter indoor match. My daughter started shooting AP when she was 14 with a 22. She has shot three regionals with a 22 and cannot wait for the annual regional shoot in May. The high school she attends even has a photo of her shooting the barricade event in the show case at the entry way of the school along with a letter from the NRA. Allowing rimfire on the local level really got her into the sport. We are now talking about shooting centerfire and going to Bianchi together.

[Allgoodhits]

How many clubs shoot the .22 class? Are the rules the same as the centerfire divisions for Open/Metallic? I'd be interested in that myself.

Virginia shoots rimfire at their matches. The Rules, Chuck, are the same sans the power factor requiurement. Also, the plates may be replaced with 1/4" thick for RF. At the VA Matches, I often do iron man: I shoot three guns. Usually Open CF, Metallic or Production CF and Open, or Metallic or Production RF. Yep, 576 rounds in competition in a day. Then repeat the next day!

I have two Open RF's, a S&W Revolver and a Ruger MK11. My Metallic RF is a Ruger MK11 w/Volquartsen barrel, and my Production RF is a S&W 617. Holsters can be a bit of a problem with the open and metallic Ruger, as some of the trigger guard lock type holsters, "may" engage the trigger when holstered "if" the safety is not ON. Narrowing the trigger should solve this, as the trigger is as wide as the guard!

MJ

[Chuck Anderson]

Has the NRA looked at doing a low ready start for Rimfire, like what they do in Steel Challenge? Most of the .22's I've seen do not really lend themselves to being holstered, and many have lousy safeties. How do they score the plates, fall to score? Might be a little tricky with normal plates and I really don't want to buy another set.

Is there a Production Rimfire?

[Spangler]

Again keeping in mind that I am still fairly new and may need a history lesson...I'm trying to understand how it became the sole responsibility of the NRA to promote, market, or grow Action Pistol? IDPA and USPSA (both mentioned) take care of that in their world. NRA supports those associations, but not NRA's duty to grow their sport. I look at NRA's PRIMARY responsibility as doing whatever they have to do to make sure I keep my rights to own guns and enjoy all shooting sports as well as defend my home. I think it's AWESOME that in addition to that they have competitive shooting programs which give us opportunities like the Bianchi Cup.

Assuming that they are interested in growing the sport...my suggestion might be simply better coverage of AP. In monthly magazines, mailers, e-mails, etc. I've been an NRA member for MANY years and had no idea there even was an AP until I joined the Bedford Club. People tend to go toward the lights...If there were some way for NRA to simply put more effort into the marketing, it may well make a difference...

BUT,

Isn't it just as much or more OUR responsibility to grow the sport if we want it grown? I would ask ALL clubs, what they do to promote the sport? Truth is we all struggle with that and we have direct contact with members on a regular basis. We have 110 members, maybe 10 shoot, why? We certainly talk about it enough...We try to promote it internally…How do WE get people’s attention at our level to join the sport. Maybe we need find someone to create an APSA (Action Pistol Shooting Association), with our own promotion, marketing, and recognition programs...

However, that would take some folks working very hard, taking a lot of responsibility, keeping things organized, putting up with a lot of crap and unnecessary complaints while getting very little praise, support, or recognition for the effort.

Oh ya, we already had them and managed to *&*^ them off over how they do a job no one else wants…As Alan says..Just my.02

mark

[Spangler]

BTW...sorry, Just can't let this go...Shouldn't "is there a production rimfire" be a in a different thread than "Marketing NRA AP"?

[Chuck Anderson]

BTW...sorry, Just can't let this go...Shouldn't "is there a production rimfire" be a in a different thread than "Marketing NRA AP"?

It's in this thread for a couple reasons, one because if the NRA does have a Production Rimfire and one of their MD's doesn't know about it, they've probably done a poor job of marketing that class. Second, it might be a very good way to get people involved. A very cheap, available, .22 gun, cheap ammo, low ready start. Wouldnt' that be an easy way to get people involved? We do the same thing with Steel Challenge. Lots of people start off, and lots of people stay because of the Division.

As far as asking the NRA, they are the sanctioning body of AP and they own it. Just like IDPA owns IDPA and USPSA owns USPSA and Steel Challenge. It's theirs. As a match director I pay money to the NRA to support this competetive event they own. Just like they own PPC, Highpower, etc. Even if we wanted to start an APSA we couldn't because it's already the NRA's.

That said, the NRA has their hands in a whole lot of pies. It is our responsibility to grow the sport. That's why this thread exists. It's titled Marketing NRA AP. Not what can we tell the NRA to do to market AP. If you've got an idea, and not just Spangler, but anyone, whether it's a National idea or a local idea, let's have it. Either way I think we need to make Martin the schill for this one. Put the list together and make him give it to the NRA. They like him a lot more than they like me.

[DWFAN]

The rule book lists Open(3.2.1) and Production (3.2.2) Rimfire firearms - http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/Action/act-book.pdf

I do not see any mention of Metallic Rimfire, not to say that there isnt, or people dont shoot it.. but it's just not there that I found.

Edited January 18, 2012 by DWFAN