standing start to sprint

[John Heiter]

Here's a little thread drift for ya:

I've watched this video a few times now and I'm struck by something that I wanted to throw out there for discussion. Footwork. I'm still totally amazed by Blake's run but I can't help but notice that on the buzzer his first step is actually backwards. This just seems wrong to me. I've been talking it over w/ one of the guys in the office who used to be a D1 track and field coach and he confirmed that training athletes to move forward on the first step is one of the things they used to work on, even from a standing start. You have to learn to let yourself fall forward even though it may feel less natural.

I can remember my old highschool football coach working on the same thing, even with us "linemen". To get an explosive start, that first step has to be forward yet most people don't even realize they are stepping backwards until they see it on video. I remember it distinctly because his way of teaching it was to put a smooth sheet of plywood on the ground immediately behind our cleats. Anyone taking a half step back onto that smooth plywood very quickly had the lesson reinforced for them.

Anyway, I just wanted to open this up for discussion because it seems like when you get to that top level, footwork could be the key to shaving tenths off when you need them.

[SmittyFL]

Patches:

I've had that argument/conversation with a bud of mine before. I'm for Blake's method, he's for your method.

With a start position where you can't get in a "stance" like heels on line you can't get going by using your method. If you were in blocks like a sprinter or a three point stance like football I would agree with you. But when your heels have to be on a line it is much faster in my opinion to get going by droping your body weight and moving a foot to the rear to spring from. I've tried it both ways with a stop watch and stand by my threory.

Maybe this shoud be split off, I'd like to hear other opinions as well.

[John Heiter]

Smitty,

Most of the time when I do it, I do it like Blake did because that's what feels the most natural but I can't help but think that doing it that way, your torso stays where it is and you're dropping your foot to the rear. In order to move forward, you need to have a foot behind your center line to push from. If you just allowed your torso to "fall" forward, bringing a foot up/forward to catch you, it would accomplish the same thing (weight forward, one leg behind the center line to push off of, etc.) but your torso would be moving forward and after one tick of the clock you would be forward of the start position instead of still on it. I'm wondering if it's just the brains aversion to the sense of falling forward that makes this an "unnatural" move.

I can see two arguments to my point. 1. That I'm missing something in the physics/kinetics of the thing and dropping a foot back is actually faster or 2. That doing what "feels" natural is almost always faster than doing something that you have to actively think about in order to do. I can't wait to get the timer I just ordered from Brian because I've got some experimenting I want to do now.

...and and I agree, this probably needs to move.

[SmittyFL]

Yeah, your point makes sense. But I still think the other way is faster. It just takes to long to "get going" with the fall forward method. Unless you timed it right and didn't get caught "creeping".

Try it with a stopwatch, moving only about 2 yards.

This only applies when you have to start with your feet on the same plane. ie. heels on the line, etc.

[Al Capizzo]

I worked a stage at Area 4 last weekend with this type of start (heals on line, sprint forward) and I noticed Max does the drop his foot back start also.

Seemed strange to me but can't argue with success. And guys like that don't do anything that they haven't thought about and experimented with.

[Little Bill]

If any of you guys have PaulW's Florida Open DVD, there is some great footage of some standing starts. (Good and Bad) In one stage (the big wide open field course) the gun started on a barrel downrange, and you had to move from a box to your gun. After watching it a couple of times, Chris Tilley had the best technique, IMO. He positioned himself in such a manner that he was coiled on his back foot already (ala spring loaded), and when the time went off, he exploded out of the box. If you compared him to a few others on the tape, he did much less dancing around inside the box before getting out.

It would be much harder to use Chris' technique on a stage that required a "heels on the line" start, and in those situations, dropping the back foot may be the better option.

[BritinUSA]

I have some video of Eric Grauffel shooting some stages at the US Nationals, one of them has a standing start where both heels had to be on a straight-line start position.

As the buzzer went, he bent both knees as if going into a semi-squat, this lowered his centre of gravity and allowed him to explode away from the starting position. His whole upper body dropped by about 6 inches then he pushed away with his right leg (the first array was to the left)..

It's hard to explain but if you try to visualise it, it should make sense.

I've tried this technique a few times and it seems to work well.

[Little Bill]

That sounds very much like what Chris was doing. Chris rocked back in forth prior to the signal, and then squated slightly on his back leg, with the other leg slightly closer than shoulder width. I have used the technique on a few match stages, and it FEELS quicker/better. I need to try it in practice on a timer.

[benos]

I experimented with this topic quite a bit.

Most shooters doing the "backward push" to get going do not know they are doing it. And even though some of the more experienced shooters may have trained move forward properly, in all the excitement, it's real easy to stab a foot to the rear to get some forward momentum, especially if you're off balance.

A good way to get moving forward quickly and effortlessly is to simply lift the forward foot (if there is one), before doing anything else. In the world of speedily rushing all over the place, it seems weird because it feels so easy.

I think first you have to practice it quite a bit before you'll even accept it as valid, then you have to practice it a whole lot longer to do it under stress. But work with it, on and off for a year or so, and you might find that like many natural reactions, the instinctive one isn't the correct one.

be

[Loves2Shoot]

If you drop your center of gravity forward and down, there is no need to step backward. Stepping backward is for people who run upright. Drop your chest and like BE said just pick up your foot and go forward, you will have plenty of "push off" power.

[Blake Miguez]

This is kinda funny because when I first saw the video I noticed the same thing about my start. I had a talk with Max M. about this a while back at a different match and we agreed that leaning forward instead of taking a step back was a more affective way of leaving a start position. This is what I try to do from most start boxes because I can set up and balance my weight like I want to. The exception is when your heels and feet are together and in line like in the start position in the video. When I was on the line, this was going through my mind. How was I going to take off without stepping backward? The lean forward just didn't feel right so I decided to just go ahead and do what was more comfortable. Stepping backward along with drawing the gun and mag at the same time felt the most comfortable in this case. So basically I agree 100% with what SmittyFL has to say about this but I am also interested with what BritinUSA said about Eric's start position. I would like to go back on his video and study his start to see if his way is better.

[mcoliver]

I've watched this video a few times now ...

Any link where I can also see this video? Thanks.

[ErikW]

Maybe a good way to practice this would be standing straight with your heels against a wall. To go forward from that position (without pushing off the wall) you are forced into leaning your upper body and it is impossible to place a foot back.

Dang, I just tried it and it's very... ingrained... to shift weight back and somehow push off against the wall with butt, back, or heels.

[benos]

Yea, both heels on a line is one loser start position. I experimented with it quite a bit and never really felt comfortable with any technique. The technique I settled on, although it almost always felt awkward or unnatural to do in a match, was to stand with most of my weight on one (usually right), and leaning as far forward as possible and still "be called" standing. Then on the buzzer just lift the left foot and start walking forward. It's really hard to do though because it "feels slow." Maybe it might be better to just forget about it and get to the shooting. I don't know.

A good experiment would be to rig a stop button on a table 10 feet from the start line, and try it dozens of times each way.

be

[ErikW]

I did a little bit of testing today. Just start at one fault line and fire a shot at a target from forward of the other fault line maybe 7' away. I was consistently about 1.90 any way. The more I paid attention to it, the more awkward it felt. It seems if you want to avoid "planting back" you have to get your weight forward on a leg, as benos said above.

[mcoliver]

A good experiment would be to rig a stop button on a table 10 feet from the start line, and try it dozens of times each way.

be

Or just your plain old timer on random beep and just give it a slap once you get to the table.

[wide45]

When the description says "heels on the line", don't make the mistake of putting your weight on your heels.

[h4444]

Back in ye olden days when H4444 was a base stealing threat and patroling the ranges of the outfield on ye olden baseball diamond little things like proper standing starts were a big topic of discussion,,,,namely on the basepaths.

Wanna learn the quick way to move laterally,,,,watch videos of a good base stealer.

For basestealing purposes we were taught for the example of stealing a base,,,,,,,

Pivot on the right ball of your foot to turn your body toward the following base and explode from that leg to cross over just like you're taking a normal running step. The rational was,,,,shifting weight to the left side cost you time and your first step isn't nearly as explosive, since the range of motion in the back leg is far more limited compared to the front.

Think about it,,,if you push off with your back leg,,,,what does that get you,,,,your first step will be slower to start because of the weight shift backwards, then when you push off,,,,you don't get a long of a push.

If you pivot your weight on your front leg and push you can immediately "pull" the other leg through.

Watch video of Rickey Henderson, Vince Coleman,,,,etc. That's how they do it.

I wasn't very fast even when I was thin,,,,but damn it, I got as quick a jump as anyone......It is just like everything else we aspire to do in shooting,,,,elimitate wasted motion, maximize the motions we do perform.

H4444

[Eye Cutter]

another technique is to fall to the direction you want to go. your weight will be on the leading foot. this will force you to step forward to break your fall and fuel the momentum to start moving forward.

[fullauto]

A late reply, but anyways.. - Eric Grauffel takes the first step to one of the sides. You have much more "torque" sideways than straight forward or back. This is just how the body works, and I learned it from Eric himself. The degree, angle of your sideways step may vary - but beginners tend to have a bigger angle than the pro. Try stepping sideways yourself, you have much more power than straight forward. And this saves you alot of time when you have to move fast out of a silly start position. Look at Eric G when he starts normally - he is never straight with his feet.

See?

Take care!

[carinab]

KDJ and I can probably speak at lengths about dropping your center to create movement. It is central to doing aikido. Which ever direction you need to go, drop your center in that direction. It isn't leaning and your body weight is never in your heels. Your center is midpoint between your hips. Generally, bending a knee will drop your center. In a start position with heels on xx's, bending one or both knees will drop your center allowing you to fall foward and push off. The same principle can be used on 180 degree turns.

To understand the idea of dropping weight (or dropping your center), try opening a door that has crash bars for a handle. Activate the bar with your hand but don't use your upperbody strength to push the door open. Instead, bend one knee and let your body weight fall forward until you have to step forward. Your arm should maintain it's position on the handle. Don't bend your elbow or wrist. Your arm is a connector not an affector. Keep your posture square to the the door as you drop your weight. You should feel your body weight dropping through your arm onto to the door - as if the door was going to hold you up.

[D-Lo]

Great thread. I've been thinking about and playing with this for some time. My shooting partners are frequently telling me to quit foolling around with my feet and shoot.

The dichotomy is this:

When I see another shooter rocking back on his back foot to get going I instinctively know it cannot be the best way. Why would one start backward's in order to go forward?

When I am the shooter I WANT instinctively to rock back to get going.

A lesson here from golf:

Be careful about what is 'natural." Changing one's swing (grip, stance, take-away, transition at the top, etc.) always feels uncomfortable and unnatural AT FIRST. With practice, anything ELSE becomes uncomfortable and unnatural.

[froglegs]

KDJ and I can probably speak at lengths about dropping your center to create movement.  It is central to doing aikido.  Which ever direction you need to go, drop your center in that direction.

moving from the belly? shooting fast feels slow

funny how the martial arts applies to the shooting in uspsa!

[fullauto]

Isnt IPSC/USPSA a martial art? :-)