.40AET Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Most of the folks who design stages in the local clubs are "average" size. They design stages with the average folks in mind. One person who I have shot with, brings a stool to the match. At 5' tall, some of the ports are too high, and in comes the stool. Is this allowed at a match? I really don't care that the stool gets pulled out, but at 6'3", no one raises the ports for me to make my life easier during a COF. In addition, on one stage where the targets stopped behing a wall, there was talk about ruling a pair of moving targets as dissapearing because the 5' person could not see them when they came to rest. The MD rulled that they were not to be dissapearing and the day went on. At what point does a vertically challenged shooter altering a COF become a violation of the rules, if ever? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 If they are shooting open, the stool can be no taller than 170mm. If they are shooting limited, 140 max And for production, only if it was original equipment supplied by mfg (sorry, couldn't resist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Yes, this can be done if approved by the MD. I believe there was something in one of the past "Front Sight's" about how they had to make a step out of a pallot for one of the Jr. shooters, so he could shoot through a higher port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 That Jr. would be our own BJ Norris at the A8 back in 2001. It was only allowed because there was no way in the world that he could shoot through the port. Without the booster seat he couldn't even see the targets. That was then now he's too damn good to give any kind of break to. I'd do it for a Jr. shooter that's just starting out but it is something that really shouldn't happen and shouldn't be allowed in the stage design process. The stage design should take into consideration all sized shooters, just like the clowns that think they are going to show the top guys something new. Sorry boys and girls they have seen it all and the only ones getting hosed are the C and D shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 .40, If I had anything to do with stage design at the match(es) you speak of my circular saw would be coming out to lower ports. I've seen vertically challenged non-juniors at matches too, and I'm not about to alienate anyone who wants to come shoot a match... By the same token, if all ports were lower four feet, I'd be looking to open 'em up to equalize things for the tall shooters.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Yes Sir. We're once again in the territory of bad course design and construction: 2.1.6 Obstacles – Natural or created obstacles in a course of fire should reasonably allow for variations in competitors' height and physical build and should be constructed to provide reasonable safety for all competitors, match officials and spectators. As Nik suggested, one fairly easy solution is to provide additional ports during construction. However under no circumstances can a competitor modify or "personalise" a COF by introducing his own props or scaling aids, but I guess there's nothing stopping him wearing high heels Seriously, if a competitor cannot make an attempt at the COF due to bad course construction, he should draw the matter to the attention of the officiating RO during the squad walkthrough, and the RO should, in turn, seek the Range Master's assistance before implementing (or even agreeing to) a possible solution. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted June 6, 2004 Author Share Posted June 6, 2004 Thanks everyone for the help. The shooter in the story is just out to have fun and I would never think to protest the stool. If she was in contention for high overall, maybe. Nik, I like your stage design theory, equality for all. I shoot at 2 local clubs, and one has a tall stage designer who takes everyone into consideration. The other place takes only short shooters into consideration and I find myself kneeling, squatting, or hunching over on 1/2 of the stages. I appreciate the input. Warp-Keep the good jokes coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 We have a junior shooter that runs with us, and he/we look for those during the walk through on every stage. If he can't see over a barrier or reach, we point it out to the RO and we have always found them to be accomodating. Seems they always have a cinder block or two laying around that just does the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Didn't older rules allow the shooter to demand a "booster" from the match officials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Erik, Not that I recall but, dammit, I'll write a new rule in a New York minute if and when Pamela Anderson takes up IPSC shooting Yeee-haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Thanks everyone for the help. The shooter in the story is just out to have fun and I would never think to protest the stool. If she was in contention for high overall, maybe. Nik, I like your stage design theory, equality for all. I shoot at 2 local clubs, and one has a tall stage designer who takes everyone into consideration. The other place takes only short shooters into consideration and I find myself kneeling, squatting, or hunching over on 1/2 of the stages. I appreciate the input.Warp-Keep the good jokes coming. The only problem I see with what you are doing is that it sets a bad precedent for later competition if the competitor decides to go to other/larger matches. Uncle Vinny can take away from my milk and cookie allowance if I am incorrect, but the rules should be followed from the club level on up. If they are followed, there should be no great surprises for the competitor when he or she goes to that first BIG match. As an RO, I don't like to hear "we've always done that at our local club" in response to a rules violation. my .02, Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Well now - y'all ain't had to hang out much with me At the Best of the Best match I INSISTED on a stool and was given one - and guess what, I wasn't the only to use it!!!! It was no advantage, it actually made me much slower than my competition, but I'm not about to end up with a face full of wood because some idiot can't remember that 5' is NORMAL height for grrls!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted June 7, 2004 Author Share Posted June 7, 2004 As Vince stated, "Yes Sir. We're once again in the territory of bad course design and construction:" Once we deem a course unfair for one type of shooter, is it the burden of the MD to either rectify the design or make the decision to allow a prop to be used to aid the shooter. BTW-I'm all for raising the ports up 6" and making a cooper tunnel a whole lot bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Several years ago at the Minnesota Sectional match, we had a shooter from Canada who shot the match - he was in a wheelchair. Naturally, he could not see through most of the ports. As Nik (I think it was he) said, out came the skilsaw and the ports were lowered enough for him to shoot. It is far more fair to lower the ports than to require competitors to use a stool or step or whatever to be able to shoot through the ports. Arnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Uncle Vinny can take away from my milk and cookie allowance if I am incorrect, but the rules should be followed from the club level on up. If they are followed, there should be no great surprises for the competitor when he or she goes to that first BIG match. As an RO, I don't like to hear "we've always done that at our local club" in response to a rules violation. No Ma'am. Hell no. In fact, you get double rations of milk 'n' cookies, served to you by Alex wearing sandals and a toga I personally hate our "Get out of jail free" Rule 1.1.5.1, and I argued vigorously against it, but the other rules guys stole my lunch and beat me with my banana, so I had to yield with grace, poise and a Vitamin A deficiency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 I argued vigorously against it, but the other rules guys stole my lunch and beat me with my banana Hey Vince Don't you go including me in "the other rules guys" on this one! I'm not in favour or at least I'm very much against it for Level II matches. In the UK we go through a formal course review process for Level II matches and treat them the same as we would a Level III match except for state differences for Level III in accordance with the book. How come if you and I were both against we still lost? Perhaps it had something to do with the 6000+ other emails that we had to deal with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Neil, Vince, let's take our fighting backchannel - it's no use to bore the other BE members with our differences with the great number of other topics on hand like stools and chrono procedures . We can at least bring it back on the agenda for the next scheduled revision - and NO, I won't chance my opinion unless strong evidence to the opposite is shown! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 So, eventually, everything is gonna come down to who's holding the most powerful lightsaber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 How come if you and I were both against we still lost? Bloody Martyn Spence again (It's an inside joke. Whenever something goes wrong with the rules, we blame Martyn Spence because um, er, ah, well, hey, why the hell not?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 I guess Yoda didn't get the (intended) irony of my post which was partly posted in jest. On reflection, Vince would understand it more. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted June 8, 2004 Author Share Posted June 8, 2004 Once again, thanks very much for all of the input. I realize that these types of things are rather trivial if you look at the big picture. I was just curious what the ruling would be, I never meant to start any type of friction between anyone. Thanks very much, Kirk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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