Jesse Tischauser Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 Interesting ideas John. It would be easy to put the smaller divisions into divisional squads as most matches don't have more than 10-15 HO, HI, TI and sometimes Open shooters. Unfortunately that would limit people from shooting with their buddies and/or travel mates. What if you ran the match with a ProAm type format where the pros where squadded with pros and Am's with Am's to ensure they all shot the environmentally unpredictable stages together? It would still force you to break ties but might ensure similar shooting conditions. TO is a whole other beast. Impossible to get them all together but you're concept of the MD/RM postponing a stage due to those environmental effects might hold water. It all gets a lot easier if you start making division specific days for certain stages. Like it was stated previously it's probably not possible to remove the differences but your ideas do reduce those effects in the match outcome. Another option would be to eliminate the targets past 50 yards unless forecasted conditions are favorable for the entire match. We have shot local matches with 4-6 stages that are all pistol distance stages. After those types of matches most shooters express the desire to shoot longer ranges for the added challenge but everyone still expresses the fact that any shooting is always a good time. To take a phrase from Mr. Ninja Cock nobody ever complains that they shot the match too fast or got to go home early. A At the Nordic shotgun match we shot the faster stages in squads on day one with 50 or so competitors. Then on the second day we all formed a big squad and shot the par time 50 yard slug stage together. It was pretty cool watching all of your competitors before and after chase the best score. Probably not possible with a 150-300 shooter match but interesting nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Interesting ideas John. It would be easy to put the smaller divisions into divisional squads as most matches don't have more than 10-15 HO, HI, TI and sometimes Open shooters. Unfortunately that would limit people from shooting with their buddies and/or travel mates. The MGM Iron-Man does just that and it was a big hit this 2011 season. Everyone but TO shot the first 3 days and then (after a one day break) the TO shot the last 3 days. Great idea but now the first (all but TO) shooters had to shoot during the week and no weekend other than travel to the match and now the prize table had to be split up prior to the match taking off since the first shooters left before the TO shooters shot. I guess taking off work for 4 days is ok for some but is a PITA for most. The MGM Iron-Man didn't have a choice and I applaud them (Travis Gibson) for the thinking outside the box. I was stupid enough to shoot the first side of the match and then after the day break RO a stage...I really need to get my head examined. I still do like this thread and it brings up some good thoughts. Sincerely, RLTW, Busyhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 I forgot about that brilliant new iron man format. It's basically two seperate matches. What if you had the smaller divisions shoot one weekend then TO the next weekend? It would require double the staff but a bunch if us would attend both matches especially if they were close to home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 If you don't have your match indoors under the big dome, I'm not sure what anyone can do. First year, Blueridge was fine weather. Since...weather hasn't been good. FB3G this year, NO RAIN in Texas all year, pretty much before or since. Could not have forseen the storm in time to change everyone's plans. This is an outdoor sport. Yes, football, ALL the players have to play in the snow, but not all the teams! Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. First year at CMMG, we got some hits that may not have been there, because no one wanted to go through the foot (I kid you not) of mud to score/tape the targets. I know it's frustrating. I've shot in the dark and the fog and the rain, and sometimes, it's just not fun. But, shooting in crappy conditions is often more fun than not shooting! But until you, or someone else, gives up your title of Mayor of 3-Gun forum and becomes God of 3-Gun weather, the real God will just do whatever he wants. Maybe, he's just messing with us for fun! Who knows? Maybe he makes it rain on purpose. Maybe he's trying to make certain people better shooters and better people. Hard to tell! If it's similar weather for all the shooters, something else will make it not fair! Life is just not fair! But you get out of it what you want to! I know, I shouldn't be talking, because I'm not in it for the prizes or the money. In fact, I put in more money and time and effort than I get back in any monetary way. But, it's my sport! I don't completely suck at it! And I love the people! Some of you are starting to sound like my middle school students..."it's not fair", "he got to take the test in the morning when he was fresh", "I was rushed 'cause I had to go to my ortho appointment." We are NOT all equal, and it's just NOT always fair, and I believe how you deal with the unfairness is part of being good in 3-Gun, too! RANT OFF! Denise P.S. I've got 17 days off from work in a row! Lot's of you are still working! Life just isn't fair, is it???? P.P.S. Just so you know, they're NOT PAID days, they take my pay for the 180 days I work and divide it evenly for the 12 months, so it's not paid vacation!!!! Just had to get that in as so many people think I get all this paid time off! Really, it's a forced leave or a temporary layoff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkboy Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 In looking at a match from the outside, where does fairness place? A match is a assembly line. You have "X" number of shooters going through "Y" number of stages in "Z" number of hours or days. There is some wiggle room built in for unforseen events. If we apply the highest value of importance to fairness, the assembly line will stop. A three day match might take a week but it will be more fair! Nevermind the missed flights or lack of ROs who needed to be elsewhere at some point. I am not saying there isn't room for improvement and I think that is your main point Jessie. But in one of your posts you stated that what you can sell off the prize table supports your trips. I am happy for you that you receive enough off the prize tables to do so. I shoot as many matches as I can afford to as well, but my vote for the highest position on the importance list is fun. When traveling home, dog tired and beat up, if I am smiling and looking forward to next year my 3 gun world is complete. I enjoy the prolific amount of subjects you post and look forward to the next one. Stimulating conversation is how new ideas become tomorrow's norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Sun Rise - to - Sun Set its always something, I have been told that you Can Game the Sun. I know for a fact that the Rain can be gamed to give the shooter a worst time on the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 (edited) I am not worried about anything being fair for anyone but my competitors. I would HATE to win because I was the only shooter to get variable conditions. I love the life isn't fair cliche. I'm gonna use the $hit outta that when I RO next;). Should make for a fun match for a bunch of folks. I might even get a t-shirt that says "life ain't fair Xitch, now sign your scoresheet". On the back it will say RO Nazi. I think I'll smoke a corn cob pipe too. Edited December 18, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Life is very fair!! you get out of it what you put into it,.........its PEOPLE that make it unfair . I think one of the biggest issues with this topic is separating "precision" from "long range" a precise shot can be set up at 100yds and less, just as an easy one (BARN) at long range can be. As well as a lot of people thinking that "everyone" is using optics, so if they can see it through their 4x optic then it should be OK for everyone else. If a MD wants to set up the match that way then just don't recognize any iron sight divisions. I would like to see a match set up where everyone shoots the same 6 stages on day one and then on day 2 you are squadded with the shooters from your division that you are closest to and you re-shoot the same 6 stages, only now with your competition. We used to do it that way for Archery comps. and it worked well, even if you did know the distances or gamey stage run, you and your competition shot together same basic conditions or at least as close to the same as possible. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveU Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 (edited) what effect does this pose to attracting new and maintaining middle of the pack competitors (for lack of a better term). ? Does it not deter growth to our sport by designing stages tailored to the highly skilled, yet intimidating to those who are new or interested. I'm going to chime in here because I'm possibly the target audience of "growing the sport" and "middle of the pack" competitors. I have been a primarily USPSA shooter ... B class. We have a local multi gun match but I had never shot a major 3 gun. I shot the Rockcastle ProAm. I missed all 4 300+ targets in the pro stage 5. I shot pro because my friends did and because it was 9 stages not 8. Despite an awful finish which I expected having never shot a 3 gun major match, and never shooting longer than 200 yards in my life (and then only to zero my scope) I had an awesome time. I am planning on practicing more 300+ shooting, and shooting more 3 gun matches as a result. Next year I can only do better! I still had the time of my life that weekend. I think the goal should always be to have a great match and have fun. Why "grow the sport" if the sport isn't what you enjoy? Or stated differently, if we like shooting long range rifle as part of the sport, why eliminate it just to grow the sport? If the range is too long, fine. Some will just take the penalties (like I did on stage 5). But my goal is not to throw all the long range targes in the future. It is to figure out how to hit them. Hope that makes sense. ETA: with regard to conditions, well, I guess the difference matters more to the elite competitor than the middle of the road shooter so I don't know. At my level I just take the weather as anther uncontrollable variable that is worse the farther away the target is. Edited December 18, 2011 by Steve Umansky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 (edited) Just to add fuel to Jesse's "Life's not fair" fire. We just got back from an Av's game. Fun time. It's a professional sport, indoors, no weather problems. But, those darn referees were in our way, WAAAYYY more than they were in the capitals way. It was so UNFAIR!!!! IT's a fast game and the puck direction changed too fast and unpredictably for the ref's to get out of the way. They seemed really good ref's, but... I do understand how upsetting it can be when someone gets to shoot a stage in perfect conditions, and you're shooting it in the mud, fog, and rain...but, as was said before...we really can't wait for perfect conditions, or equally bad conditions and still finish a big match, or sometimes even a local one. I don't know, but I remember when I first started shooting, we used to laugh, that they we were at a local pistol match, all shooting a surprise lost brass match in the snow. We'd hide in the shed around a propane heater while one RO and the shooter would go shoot the stage. Then they'd come in to get warm and we'd all run out to reset. We laughed at how absolutely crazy we had to be to keep shooting! When I started shooting 3-Gun at Aurora with the original RM3G crew, I'd whine about the snow or rain, and I was told..."Denise, this is 3-Gun! Not some wussy pistol match. Shut up and shoot!" I mean seriously, it's not a real 3-Gun match unless you're bleeding, right??? (P.S. That's why I jumped off the truck! ) I always think of 3-gunners as people who roll with it, take what the 3-Gun God hands us and have fun, no matter what!" On with the discussion! Denise Edited December 18, 2011 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I would like to see a match set up where everyone shoots the same 6 stages on day one and then on day 2 you are squadded with the shooters from your division that you are closest to and you re-shoot the same 6 stages, only now with your competition. We used to do it that way for Archery comps. and it worked well, even if you did know the distances or gamey stage run, you and your competition shot together same basic conditions or at least as close to the same as possible. Trapr Trapr, I can't wait to see your shotgun match shot this way...Insert foot into mouth...hope it's a small foot Waiting... Busyhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Every sport has these issues.. and it affects everyone.. so why whine about it? Can you see Jack Nicholas complaining: "But Watson didn't have wind in his face!" - lol Why does asking questions about how to improve our sport always get called whining? I do my whining and crying in my beer that night after I shot the match. This is supposed to be civilized discussion. Respectfully Yours, The Mayor That's not a jab at you.. it's just "why worry about it?" It's an outdoor sport, there will be variables, there will always be variables.. sometimes for you, sometimes against you One time at Ironman.. we were shooting Stage 11.. almost everyone got through it.. then Bagakis shot.. it poured buckets on him.. I'm sure it cost him some serious points I think the same match.. TMC was shooting stage 6 ,, shooting under a car? A whirlwind came up.. you could no longer see TMC or the RO.. and no way could he shoot at anything.. and it was a small bay But it's not just wind or rain, all kinds of factors.. you can't mitigate them all For me the most fun stages are the 200-400 yard stages.. I wouldn't travel to short matches. Weather is just a part of it ETA - I have heard the occasional match rumor where squads were moved around.. so they wouldn't be affected by odd weather.. that is another thing entirely.. Our squad including the guy that took second place in TO shot stage 8 in pouring rain at the recent FB3G. None of our squad finished higher than 60% or so. It could have been the difference between winning and losing for the 2nd place guy. That evening we found out that the MD had called a cease fire due to the rain while we were shooting. Our RO's never got the message. Shituff happens the guy that got 2nd place never complained nor did anyone on our squad but it sure would have been nice to see the match winner and 2nd place shooter go heads up in the same match conditions. Same goes for Mr. Andersen. He shot that same match in one day in the sun a few days prior to the actual match. He eventually won by 6 match points or so. Wouldn't it have been a better competition if the winner and runner up shot the stages together? I'm not slighting anyone here but there are disparities. We don't get to choose when we shoot each stage. Its luck of the draw. I'm sure Mr. Andersen would have rather shot in two days instead of rushing through 9 stages in one day. One of the top Open division shooters recently told me that he makes sure to shoot with the other top guys in his division rather than squadding up with his buddies from TO simply because he wants to make sure the top guys shoot the same match. He definitely didn't want to win because he got lucky on the stage assignments. It sounded like a great idea and a very noble move. Other than the Texas stadium idea which doubds awesome the best suggestion sounds like having multiple long range stages spread out over the match, heck I am no MD which is why I keep asking these dumb questions but that would also seem to make the match flow more smoothly. You could shoot the stages in those awesome zones like IPSC does or like Larry did at FNH. Since it sounds like you are calling me out, I shot Stage 8 in less than ideal conditions as well. No rain but nearly dark and foggy so much so that the 300 yard targets were difficult to see - I believe I was the 3rd or 4th to last shooter on Day 1. I chose to shoot in near dark and fog as opposed to the forecast rain, probably a good call. Had I shot it in the rain, would that have stripped me of 34 match points knocking Rustin into 1st? Maybe. We will never know. Of course, I also won 2 stages on Day 2. Had I shot that in better conditions could I have won 3 or even 4 of those? Maybe. We will never know. But it the nature of the beast. Have I lost matches because I shot in worse conditions than the winner? Maybe. We will never know. Shooting outdoors will always bring these inconsistencies to the table. The best solution is to have super squads wherein all the top shooters compete together in roughly the same conditions similiar to the aformentioned Highpower matches wherein all the Master and High Master shoot on the line at the same time. Of course that invariably leads to complaints about super squads. Edited December 21, 2011 by kellyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Hey Isto, you should give me the 1st plate silver plate from the 2009 European Rifle Championships because I had to shoot one of the LR stages with 5.63 mph more wind than you did. Had it not been for that I would have had 9 more match points crushing your score. Ergo, I should have been Euro Rifle Champion. Ergo, the plate is MINE! Email me and I will send you a shipping address for MY silver plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Since it sounds like you are calling me out, I shot Stage 8 in less than ideal conditions as well. In lawyereze, don't show up on his case list Jesse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 Since it sounds like you are calling me out, I shot Stage 8 in less than ideal conditions as well. No rain but nearly dark and foggy so much so that the 300 yard targets were difficult to see - I believe I was the 3rd or 4th to last shooter on Day 1. I chose to shoot in near dark and fog as opposed to the forecast rain, probably a good call. Had I shot it in the rain, would that have stripped me of 34 match points knocking Rustin into 1st? Maybe. We will never know. Of course, I also won 2 stages on Day 2. Had I shot that in better conditions could I have won 3 or even 4 of those? Maybe. We will never know. But it the nature of the beast. Have I lost matches because I shot in worse conditions than the winner? Maybe. We will never know. Shooting outdoors will always bring these inconsistencies to the table. The best solution is to have super squads wherein all the top shooters compete together in roughly the same conditions similiar to the aformentioned Highpower matches wherein all the Master and High Master shoot on the line at the same time. Of course that invariably leads to complaints about super squads. I definitely wasn't calling you or Chuck out. We all know both of you are excellent shooters capable of winning any match you enter. I was just using a recent match with less than ideal conditions so people could relate to the experiences I aimed to touch in with this thread. Your comments about a super squad are much appreciated and the sort of ideas I was hoping to bring to the forefront. I am under the impression that everyone on this forum is as passionate about this sport as I am. With this thread and several others i have started recently I merely trying to get discussions going on ways to improve the sport I love. The one thing I have found and enjoyed about this sport is that most of the guys that shoot it are sharper than the average Joe with the exception of me of course. So hearing input and ideas from you guys helps me better understand the game and hopefully helps make it more fun for the newcomers to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Super Squads...I see the benefit for the "match winner". However, does that affect the "breakout guy" negatively? How about the "pretty good, but not super" squad? Look at guys like Rustin and James, 2 years ago not many knew who they were, now they are making shoot-offs. There are certainly others just behind the "Supers" that can get a shot at a win. I've toyed with the idea of shifting squads after day one to normalize the placements in a tired type of squadding. Could be a logisitcal mess, and then people want to shoot with their friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 Switching up squads on day two and/or three would be pretty cool actually. As much as I like Shootibg g with my homies it's always good to shoot with some new homies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 If we want to maintain the premise that 3 Gun is practical shooting; i.e. what we do has practical applications, then dealing with bad weather is part of being a multifunctional practical shooter. The only time bad weather at a match made me unhappy is when a lot of shooters simply left the range and came back to shoot later and were allowed to shoot. Unless the ROs/MDs calls the range cold for everyone due to safety considerations, that shouldnt be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 just because I don't know I'll ask, actually I think I know the answer but I want to hear if there is actually a rule on it........If the shooter is called to the line and they are not ready!!!! normally they are allowed to be moved a couple of shooters back and get ready. Could that not also be the case if the shooter doesn't want to shoot in the current conditions???? I know that at RM3G I was called to the line with an approaching thunderstorm on the valley floor, and asked that if it started to downpour so violently that the LR targets became practically impossible to see, could i be stopped by the RO and granted a reshoot. The final reply was YES!!! if this were not the case i would have asked to wait to see exactly what the storm would do. As it was i shot, it rained but not significantly until after I was finished, and all was OK. Common Sense prevailed!!!!!! imagine that Another approach would be to have open squadding and let the shooter decide when they shoot the stage????? Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I liked DPMS's squadding where the major players were spread amongst all the squads, without a super squad. It does great things for new shooters to be squadded with seasoned competators, especially those that are willing to offer there experience's and therefore help grow the next group of shooters. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Since squadding has been brought up... I like shooting w/ people that I have not yet been able to call "friend". I've met some great guys by being randomly squadded that I'm sure I wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to get to know. Like Jay said, it's a great opportunity to share the sport whether your teaching or learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 just because I don't know I'll ask, actually I think I know the answer but I want to hear if there is actually a rule on it........If the shooter is called to the line and they are not ready!!!! normally they are allowed to be moved a couple of shooters back and get ready. Could that not also be the case if the shooter doesn't want to shoot in the current conditions??? Stop making me go read rules! I looked, and I found no rule that covers your question in any of the Outlaw 3Gun rule-sets. I'd hope common sense dictates, but common sense is not that common anymore. I don't know if I was the one who actually answered "Yes" to you, but I did tell the ROs that was what would happen when you asked. I got "dumped on" on stage 1 and Hawkins had to throw me a lifevest and scuba gear...Started with not even a drop, got the first drop about 5 seconds in. I finished, not being able to see one of the far targets, so my personal experience is what prompted the emphatic answer there (and why ROs should SHOOT, not just officate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Since squadding has been brought up... I like shooting w/ people that I have not yet been able to call "friend". I've met some great guys by being randomly squadded that I'm sure I wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to get to know. Like Jay said, it's a great opportunity to share the sport whether your teaching or learning. I agree 100%. It wasn't but a year or two ago when I showed up at my first match and didn't know anybody. Two of the guys I shot with are on TV tonight. Rustin and Taran and I can call them both friends. Where else does that happen? Hell and I've never shot with but that guy from the Ozark episode of 3 Gun Nation, Bryan Ray said hi to me at a match once. Awesome!! Edited December 23, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Every match I attend I meet someone from another state. I have always had exceptional people to shoot with, Some where great shooters, all were great people. From a personal standpoint I understand the supersquad, but as a shooter who wants to get better I understand that just squadding with some other good shooters will help me raise my own bar. As to the long range topic, my opinion as a dying iron sight shooter is that anything past 400 if used needs to be a good size target, both for hit-ability and ability to locate in various light and weather. I guess my previous statement would be suggesting greater than 4 moa. Being able to judge wind values in a speed competition removes the game to precision rifle. Having a target that will allow for a bit of wind drift on the bullet allows for negligible compensation from the shooter. As has been stated over and over on Enos forum, the fastest shooter will still hit the target the fastest. Merry Christmas to all you shooters out there. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigS. Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Every match I attend I meet someone from another state. I have always had exceptional people to shoot with, Some where great shooters, all were great people. From a personal standpoint I understand the supersquad, but as a shooter who wants to get better I understand that just squadding with some other good shooters will help me raise my own bar. As to the long range topic, my opinion as a dying iron sight shooter is that anything past 400 if used needs to be a good size target, both for hit-ability and ability to locate in various light and weather. I guess my previous statement would be suggesting greater than 4 moa. Being able to judge wind values in a speed competition removes the game to precision rifle. Having a target that will allow for a bit of wind drift on the bullet allows for negligible compensation from the shooter. As has been stated over and over on Enos forum, the fastest shooter will still hit the target the fastest. Merry Christmas to all you shooters out there. Jay The 4 moa target size is really the way to go , at the Texas MG championship 2011 the 480 yd target looked like the size of a trash can lid ! but the 25mph winds still drifted most shots off target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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