Revolvers and recoil

[spook]

My revolver doesn't return to it's original position after a shot. It stays pointed up. I noticed this while doing some of the timing Drills from Matt's site. Is this normal? A revolver obviously has no slide that returns the autoloaders to the original position.

Does a revolver shooter have to time the gun actively, instead of letting the gun do the work? What are your experiences?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Yes, you have to build your stance and grip so the gun gets repositioned by you, and not via the slide inertia on closing. One thing that helps is to hold as high as you can without having the hammer hit your hand on the DA stroke.

[Ray Chonlatid]

I agree with Patrick. I assume your strong hand(palm) did not high enough.

Spook, what type and material of your grip ?

[SmittyFL]

I have my left (weak hand) thumb on the cylinder shroud. I think this greatly helps keep the recoil down. I shoot a 625 in .45

Side Note: Do NOT try this with .44 mag hunting rounds or any other high power round for that matter.

[spook]

Just what I thought. I'll have to find a better way to cut down recoil. I have "custom" grips. It sounds fancy, but when you see them the first thing you think is: "OMG, what a POS!"

They're huge. They're made out of epoxy putty (which I put over and old maimed Pachmayr rubber grip). There's no "air" between my hands and the grip. And I get a nice high hold on the gun.

[sargenv]

When I took the Jerry Miculek Class, he had us take our normal position, and then he proceeded to feel how the gun was gripped in our hands by grabbing the end of the barrel and shaking. Most of us are semi-auto shooters and it wiggled in our hands. He made us put a very firm grip on it so it didn't move at all. With this firm grip, we all noticed we were able to manage recoil a lot better than if we had a medium or light grip. Being that the game is about speed, the firm grip kept us on target better than lighter grips and that was how we sayed on target after recoil. As part of this, we were also to keep the trigger moving as part of the exercise so that split times would be less since the trigger never stopped. You just made sure that when it was going to break the shot that you were on target. We all noticed our split times droped when we utilized that in combination with the firm grip. After doing that for several hundred rounds, I determined that I needed different grips than the Hogue grippers because they hurt my right hand when gripping that tight.

I shot my 6.5" 610 classic in 10mm with 40 S&W loads to about a 155 pf that day.

Vince

[Flexmoney]

Interesting stuff here.

Spook, if you get the chance...

I'd like to hear how different the timimg drills would be if you shot them ...with a burning focus on returning the gun to the target as quickly as possible.

[Bubber]

Spook,

As long as yu have epoxy on your grip anyway... I put a "ridge" on my grip about a finger thick so my weak hand palm has a "ledge" to push or rest against. This helps me keep a good sight picture when two hand shooting and aids in keeping the sequential sight picture quicker. I think Ichiro Nagata came up with a similar grip design with Hogue well before I got mine. Tetsu Murata had the same Idea and I think all the Japenese team did similar things with the magic of Epoxy. If you wish to pm me I can try to get a rough picture to you for you to see what I'm talking about. My revo is open with ports and hybrids and shooting a stock revo I find that you have to let the revo work more and get the timing down for sucessive shots.

[bountyhunter]

If you look at the "impulse graph" of the recoil of a revolver versus an auto:

1) The revolver has just one sharp jolt at discharge.

2) An Auto has a medium jolt at discharge and then a gradual ramping upward force as the recoil spring is compressed. Then a final bump when the slide hits the frame.

In a nutshell, the slide acts like a recoil absorber spreading the energy out in time (thus reducing the reak felt recoil). The exact "feel" of an auto's recoil is influenced by the various spring weights.

[benos]

That's a good description of why the two guns feel so different. And since the feeling of the recoil is quite different, you must learn to grip and shoot both guns differently. Even though technically, the auto doesn't "return itself," it kind of feels like it does. But really, one learns, through a lot of practice, to return an auto sights to precisely where they started from. Which is the same thing you must do with a revolver, it just feels different.

be

[brentm]

the guys are right, firm stance up top, firm grip

minor loads with slab sided defintely settles back down on target when your not in a hurry like in Action

ive found when youre in a rush you do need to aid that sight picture recover with a little force especially if youve got a std barrel without much weight.

ive always griped as high as possible, come to think of it you would have trouble getting the thing outa my hands if you pulled

you should dry fire alot to get co-ordinated with trigger lenght/pull speed, i think the revolver is more about trigger than anything else, youve a long pull time to get off/on target use it to your advantage

Brentm

[spook]

As long as yu have epoxy on your grip anyway... I put a "ridge" on my grip about a finger thick so my weak hand palm has a "ledge" to push or rest against

Bubber, that is exactly what I did. I put a big ridge behind the fingertips of my strong hand, so my weak hand palm has something to grab a firm hold of. I also made it grippier by applying sand mixed with paint. Cool, this is like a second parallel evolution to fix the same problem

Spook, if you get the chance...

I'd like to hear how different the timimg drills would be if you shot them ...with a burning focus on returning the gun to the target as quickly as possible.

Flex, that is the exact focus I had when I continued after seeing my sight stayed up. I shot the drill to see how the gun acted with different amounts of pressure of the hands. What I saw was that the return isn't fluid, like with an auto. The whole return has to be done by me. It doesn't quite matter if I grip it hard. That makes the front sight rise less high, but it also seems to make the return (plus triggering) less smooth.

No matter what I tried, it made no real difference in the amount of work I had to put in to return the gun. The only differences it made was how I had to work to get it back on target.

Of course, I realize I will have to put in lots of work to learn how my FS rises and what the most effective way of returning it is. I just find it weird that it took so long for me to realize my gun actually did that. Especially while the whole recoil/FS picture is the most in-your-face visual input you have when firing a gun.

Bountyhunter, what you say feels like a good description of what I (and everyone else) is dealing with. Brian, you follow up nicely with the whole learning thing. Of course, very true. But there's not a lot of info on this whole subject, is there? I have Jerry M's tape, but I somehow feel that his theories (with him being a self-taught man and all) are very specialized to his body (Popeye sized forearms etc.)

I guess I'll have to work out a lot of this sh...stuff myself.

[firewalker]

I have found that a high grip is needed for revolver shooting. But what i just learned from a master revolver shooter in IDPA was in the grip pressure The strong hand is only a moderate grip...the weak hand is a firm grip thumb over locking..weak hand tilts foward slightly...revolver seems to always come back now.... after a few thousand rounds this is the grip i now compete with...

[Mikul]

I'm shooting .44 Mag in action pistol just to teach myself to better deal with recoil (yea, I've got issues). What I've learned so far is, as has been said, to keep a high grip. There is such a thing as "too high" because I've found pain when I've gotten there. Pressure and steadfastness on the part of your pinky and ring fingers is critical. Letting the gun roll out of those fingers just a hair can send the gun high enough that time to a followup shot will be measured with a calendar. Use your weak hand to fuse those fingers into position. Finally, thanks to a friend, I've discoverd that when I shoot, my arms are welded to the gun. Recoil is mainly absorbed in the shoulders although neither of my arms are locked out. At the end of a long day of shooting, my shoulders move an awful lot because I get tired, so I've been working with weights to strenghthen them.

[dajarrel]

Mikul,

This may just be a personal preference thing, but I have to use my arms to help reduce the effects of recoil. If you think about the physiology of the arms and shoulders I think you may agree.

Your elbows are hinges, ie, your arms fold. Your shoulders however are ball and socket joints. They are made to rotate. If you will allow the big muscles in the arm to flex the arms absorbing recoil, I think at the end of the day your shoulders will not be as tired or sore as they would if you locked your arms.

It works for me but YMMV,

dj

[Carmoney]

My opinions:

Fast revolver shooting requires using a HARD grip with both hands.

Not the "feeb Weaver" thing we see from the old-timer tactical types, where the gun flies up in the air with every shot while the flab on their arms jiggles....

And not the "let the gun do it for you" pressing between the palms thing that is apparently in vogue with the younger crowd.

Pick up the revolver, take a good hard grip with your strong hand like you're going to be shooting it strong-hand-only (holding as high up on the frame as possible), wrap the other hand around it good and hard and lock the shooting thumb down.

Then use a "hard" stance that will snap the gun back down biomechanically--a real Weaver (with lots of push/pull isometric pressure); a real Chapman (where you pull the locked shooting arm back like a rifle stock); or a real isosceles (arms locked)--and whichever stance you use, keep the shoulders forward of the pelvis.

Mike

[Ron Ankeny]

I guess everyone is just a little bit different. I grip the revolver with about the same pressure I would use with a framing hammer. A decent grip for sure, but I don't over power the grip. I never lock my arms straight out, I keep them slightly bent. The stance is the same as I use with a semi-auto. Maybe 30 years of shooting a wheelgun allows me to just return the sights and time the gun without a whole lot of effort.

[spook]

Maybe 30 years of shooting a wheelgun allows me to just return the sights and time the gun without a whole lot of effort.

That's what I noticed when I shot the 625 after shooting my Glock17 for a while. Revolvers are pretty easy to time.

Carmoney, I agree with you on the grip thing, but I think isolating the trigger finger from the strong grip in the strong hand makes you shoot fast. Lots of shooters (including me ) try to control recoil with their whole hand including the trigger finger.

[Carmoney]

Whatever stance and style is employed, I think revolver shooting comes most naturally to those of us who start out on the revolver. That's one reason why my 11-year-old is working his way toward C-class (and eventually, beyond) in REV class now....

I do believe in a hard grip with both hands.....for me. I start lightening up, my shots start getting away from me.

Although I should probably mention that most of my early shooting career was spent chasing JM in the pin-shooting game--and we're talking 215+ power factor. You better be holding that sumbitch tight when you're trying to light off five pin loads fast....

Mike

[spook]

You better be holding that sumbitch tight when you're trying to light off five pin loads fast....

Shooting Pin loads for a week and then switching back to 165 PF a couple of days before the USPSA match seems like a good trick to feel comfortable with recoil

[JohnRodriguez]

I pretty much put a death grip on my revo's, but I also point my thumbs at the target just like shooting a 1911. If the loads are hot (38 special, 160gr RN, 6.0gr VVN340, 171 pf, 1070fps) i'll curl my strong hand thumb in so it doesn't get pounded by the recoil shield. I've been shooting this load for the last 5 month's and when I pick up my Para LDA 16.40 limited gun 170 pf, I had to check the loads over the crony, since they felt like minor, just got use to the sharp kick from the revo. also the web of my hand is usually over the top the revo, doesn't bother me since the hammer spurs are removed.

[Bill Schwab]

(38 special, 160gr RN, 6.0gr VVN340, 171 pf, 1070fps

Thread drift: Major with 38 Special? Impressive!

[Ron Ankeny]

I guess I am a wimp. I like a big heavy N-Frame like a 6.5 inch 25-2 or a 6.5 inch 610 classic, together with 168-170 pf loads with a heavy bullet and fast powder. I know my front sight lifts more than it would with a death grip and a real agressive stance, but the sight tracks perfectly and it's back quick enough. Frankly, I wouldn't advise anyone to use more "power" than required to get the desired results. If I stay loose I seem to do a lot better. Then again, maybe I am subconciously putting more muscle into it than I think I am. I don't know. I am still trying to learn these cotton picking bottom feeders and I just shoot the wheelgun for a break.

[Carmoney]

(38 special, 160gr RN, 6.0gr VVN340, 171 pf, 1070fps

Thread drift: Major with 38 Special? Impressive!

Nah, that ain't nothin'.....my primary pin competition ammo for years was a 230-gr. bullet over 7.8 gr. of Blue Dot loaded in mixed .38 Spl. brass. Those big ol' flat-fronted bullets would chrono around 1050 fps from an 8-3/8" barrel, and they actually did not recoil as much as you might think.

So we're talking 240+ p.f. from a .38 Special!! (of course, the gun itself was a long-barreled N-frame Model 27 that I bought from benos). I still have a few hundred of those loaded up from 10+ years ago, and shoot them every year in the one invitational bowling pin shoot that I still attend.

BTW, this was also Jerry's load for maybe two seasons before he switched back to the 200-grainers.

Anyway, you can understand why I say hold on tight.....

Mike

[JohnRodriguez]

When I go out coyote hunting I carry the same Model 627 6 shot with a 5.5" barrel which is my compatition gun, which is also the same gun I run the 38 specials in. DON'T TRY THIS LOAD IN YOUR 686 OR 8 SHOT N-FRAMES.

18.7gr Hodgon Lil'gun

125 gr Gold Dot hollow point

federal 100 primers (the gun won't light off magnum primers, that's why i use lil'gum)

It cronies 1920 fps, not sure what the power factor is, to lazy to do it on a calculator right now. There is no muzzle flip, just a good solid push back.