Reload without allowing muzzle over the berm

[LPatterson]

No problems with pistols as the ranges are 4200-4500 meters deep.

Most be hell to get between stages if the targets are near the backstop. Our pistol bays are usually 15 - 50 yards deep and we have a substancial backstop. Rifle bays are only 100 - 300 yards.

[Chuck Anderson]

This is a not an easy decision for anyone in USPSA. The bottom line is there are certain things that will make a USPSA match, not a USPSA match. If clubs start invoking local rules it really stops being local rules. I've had lots of clubs ask for local rules. None of them have been approved by the President. Some for just this reason, loading over the berm, others are shooting steel twice, holsters, bullet designs and I'm sure more will come up. At what point does USPSA decide that the club hosting the USPSA match, but won't allow competitors to move with a loaded gun in hand is not really hosting USPSA matches.

One of the fundamental reasons USPSA was created was to help codify the patchwork of different rules each match ran under. Speaking as someone who shoots at a lot of different clubs in a lot of different states it's nice to learn one rule book, not 50. I can tell you I would be less than pleased if I went to the Area 6 match(used because I know they would never do this) and get DQ'd because I reloaded with my muzzle pointed over the berm.

As to the concern about rounds leaving the range reloading with the muzzle over the berm. There are already rules that cover this making it a DQ. I would point to these when discussing with the host club how safe USPSA already is.

As to the comment about SC's not having any authority. That is really a disappointing statement to hear anyone involved with USPSA make. Maybe it's just my experience with the Section I've been in but the SC's have always had a big role in how the matches in their section run. They are on the front line to make sure the rules are followed. When I was SC I never needed to go further than the suggestion to change something because it wasn't allowed in the rules. As AD I've had a number of SC's contact me about local issues not being run by the book. Even those were simple enough to deal with. That said if I did come upon a group not following the rules, that didn't respond to every other attempt to fix the issues to be in accordance with the rules, the only option I have is to pull the sanction from the match.

Run whatever you want, but if it doesn't follow the USPSA rule book, it's not USPSA. There is the chance we may lose a club or even more than one, and along with that we may use some of the members that only have that club to shoot at. It's unfortunate, but I think we'd lose more if we went to a patchwork of rules with no consistency from club to club.

[bbbean]

No problems with pistols as the ranges are 4200-4500 meters deep.

I know there's a lot of open space in W TX, but your ranges are 2.8 miles deep? How wide are they? Where is his range?

[deerassassin22]

I always hold the gun flat at chest level keeps the barrel within the height of berms, I have never had a problem at a match.

[Carmoney]

how are the revolver guys going to dump the empties out of their cylinders?

Actually, there are efficient ways to speed-reload a revolver that don't involve pointing the barrel upward. I keep the gun in my right hand and catch the extractor rod with the palm of my left hand right after opening the cylinder. This method probably wouldn't work well with loose rounds, but with moonclips it's actually faster.

[LPatterson]

It sounds like someone is worried about where the liability may fall is someone claims that a bullet has left the range in the direction of their house. Unfortunately it happened here where a home owner reported a 9mm bullet hit his house over a mile from the range. While it might have been possible for a 115gr bullet to have traveled that far, it would not have entered the house at the 90 degree angle this bullet did. He THREATENED to sue and the city closed the range. It didn't matter that the range was there first and the home owner built outside the metro area (actually farm land), the city was claiming the area for the tax levy (no water/no sewer). Actually I am a lot closer and I don't have those things.

The point is that if someone wants your range closed badly enough then all your safety efferts will be for naught.

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

Also, if we just explain to people why we cannot tolerate local rules and why our game has uniform rules that are respected throughout the U.S. and with minimal modification, the same rules are used throughout the world, it really goes a long way. Those who don't know about our game need to know that it's much bigger than the local level.

While I agree with you in general on the above statement, and have LONG held that position, I must sadly concede that USPSA and IPSC rules are growing further apart with each passing year. It's not that either one is on a straight line and the other is drifting, but rather both seem to be drifting in opposite directions from a mid-line set of rules. JMHO

[PeterMor]

Just heard that there is now discussion of implementing this rule in one of our local clubs here in WA!

[Chuck Anderson]

Not exactly. The Host club is planning to implement that rule. If they want it to apply to USPSA, they will no longer be a USPSA venue.

[HuskySig]

Chuck,

How feasible would it be for USPSA to adopt a rule like IPSC has in place for this type situation? Specifically IPSC rule 10.5.2, which says: "Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point uprange, or past the default, or specific safe angle of fire during a course of fire, (limited exceptions: see Rules 5.2.7.3 and 10.5.6)."

Something like this would give individual clubs the ability to designate muzzle safe points such as the top of the berm. Instead of potentially losing clubs, I would think USPSA would rather take a more proactive position and try to work with clubs. Especially clubs that are in urban areas where bullets leaving the range is a very bad thing.

[EkuJustice]

I would vote let the clubs go and host an action pistol or whatever they want to call it without the USPSA name associated. If I attend a santioned match in any disapline, USPSA,IDPA, ATA, NSSA, NSCA etc I expect to follow a specific set of rules. You should be able to attend any santioned match no matter where you are located and be ale to walk in and compete and not have to thing and remember ok here I have to reload this way, where at this club I need to load a different way. Have local rules of no barrel over berm and your just asking the non locals to get DQed. If your use to shooting that way and practice your loading that way its natural. If your use to loading with the barrel up and look the mag in with it pointing over the burm like you have done thousands of time in practice and other matches. I will bet when the timer is on your gonna do it sooner or later the way you practiced and go home.

[Skydiver]

I would vote let the clubs go and host an action pistol or whatever they want to call it without the USPSA name associated. If I attend a santioned match in any disapline, USPSA,IDPA, ATA, NSSA, NSCA etc I expect to follow a specific set of rules. You should be able to attend any santioned match no matter where you are located and be ale to walk in and compete and not have to thing and remember ok here I have to reload this way, where at this club I need to load a different way. Have local rules of no barrel over berm and your just asking the non locals to get DQed. If your use to shooting that way and practice your loading that way its natural. If your use to loading with the barrel up and look the mag in with it pointing over the burm like you have done thousands of time in practice and other matches. I will bet when the timer is on your gonna do it sooner or later the way you practiced and go home.

Yes, I agree.

Additionally, if an indoor stage designer screws up and forgets to designate where a target array maybe engaged, if I shoot a visible target and the bullet goes into the concrete side walls of the range, I shouldn't be DQ'd. (See second sentence of Rule 10.4.1.) No local rule that says "If you put a round into the sidewalls, you go home.", right?

Edited December 15, 2011 by Skydiver

[Paul-the new guy]

I would vote let the clubs go and host an action pistol or whatever they want to call it without the USPSA name associated. If I attend a santioned match in any disapline, USPSA,IDPA, ATA, NSSA, NSCA etc I expect to follow a specific set of rules. You should be able to attend any santioned match no matter where you are located and be ale to walk in and compete and not have to thing and remember ok here I have to reload this way, where at this club I need to load a different way. Have local rules of no barrel over berm and your just asking the non locals to get DQed. If your use to shooting that way and practice your loading that way its natural. If your use to loading with the barrel up and look the mag in with it pointing over the burm like you have done thousands of time in practice and other matches. I will bet when the timer is on your gonna do it sooner or later the way you practiced and go home.

That is fine if you live where there is no concearn of urban sprawl and encrochement. In Florida what was once out in the boondocks is now getting closer and closer to civilization. You can say let the club go all you want but when it is your home range you will be wishing there was a work around.

Yes, I agree.

Additionally, if an indoor stage designer screws up and forgets to designate where a target array maybe engaged, if I shoot a visible target and the bullet goes into the concrete side walls of the range, I shouldn't be DQ'd. (See second sentence of Rule 10.4.1.) No local rule that says "If you put a round into the sidewalls, you go home.", right?

If you invite people over to your house you don't expect to have to tell them not to pee on the floor... I think comon sense should prevail the traps at the end of indoor ranges are for catching bullets... The side walls are just not made for that. Be thankful they let you use the facility.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Paul-the new guy

[EkuJustice]

The work around is an outlaw match. If it is a USPSA match, it needs to follow uspsa rules. If a varience has not been granted to the club to allow the rule change then what rule are you going to site when you DQ the shooter for breaking? How would any of the classifiers be considered legal since that rule change would be requireing one shooter to do something different from all the other shooters. Im not saying the club should do away with action shooting but it should not be a USPSA event if uspsa rules are not followed

[Schutzenmeister]

Additionally, if an indoor stage designer screws up and forgets to designate where a target array maybe engaged, if I shoot a visible target and the bullet goes into the concrete side walls of the range, I shouldn't be DQ'd. (See second sentence of Rule 10.4.1.) No local rule that says "If you put a round into the sidewalls, you go home.", right?

First - obviously - the designer for any stage, especially an indoor stage, must be especially careful of where bullets go (by design) and include limitations in the WSB where necessary to keep rounds impacting the bullet trap at all times.

However - I believe it is permissable under 10.4.1 to specify that rounds which impact outside the bullet trap are defined as being fired in an unsafe direction. Obviously, if the shooter has fired a legitimate shot at a target, then he cannot be DQ'd ... That one's on the designer/match organizers for not designing and setting it up properly. We had just such a shot this weekend ... It grazed a plastic barrel, deflected, and struck a side wall. Had the shooter shot the wall directly, I would have supported a DQ. (There were no targets he could have been shooting at that would have excused this.) But, as he fired in a legitimate direction and the bullet was deflected by a prop, we simply had to repair a gouge in the plaster. (There's 6" of steel-reinforced concrete behind it.)

[PeterMor]

Just heard that there is now discussion of implementing this rule in one of our local clubs ranges here in WA!

corrected in the quote

[Nik Habicht]

The work around is an outlaw match. If it is a USPSA match, it needs to follow uspsa rules. If a varience has not been granted to the club to allow the rule change then what rule are you going to site when you DQ the shooter for breaking? How would any of the classifiers be considered legal since that rule change would be requireing one shooter to do something different from all the other shooters. Im not saying the club should do away with action shooting but it should not be a USPSA event if uspsa rules are not followed

I've thought about this a bit -- and there's an option beyond disqualifying the competitor from the match. The host range could simply revoke the competitor's permission to shoot that match. Not a DQ, so scores stand as shot, classifier results go in if the member completed the classifier.....

I could see a scenario of:

1. Warning
   
2. Sorry, you're no longer allowed to shoot here today.
   
3. Sorry, you've done this twice this year, you won't be able to come to back until next year.
   

Perfectly legal, doesn't require a rules variance, though it should be very carefully considered and advertised.......

I don't know what the answer is. A match DQ is out, without a variance. Telling the club to go away/letting it drift away due to a lack of creatively thinking about the problem, and implementing a solution that addresses everyone's concerns also strikes me as problematic.

[remoandiris]

I've thought about this a bit -- and there's an option beyond disqualifying the competitor from the match. The host range could simply revoke the competitor's permission to shoot that match. Not a DQ, so scores stand as shot, classifier results go in if the member completed the classifier.....

I could see a scenario of:

1. Warning
   
2. Sorry, you're no longer allowed to shoot here today.
   
3. Sorry, you've done this twice this year, you won't be able to come to back until next year.
   

Perfectly legal, doesn't require a rules variance, though it should be very carefully considered and advertised.......

I don't know what the answer is. A match DQ is out, without a variance. Telling the club to go away/letting it drift away due to a lack of creatively thinking about the problem, and implementing a solution that addresses everyone's concerns also strikes me as problematic.

Perfectly legal under what?

[aztecdriver]

Additionally, if an indoor stage designer screws up and forgets to designate where a target array maybe engaged, if I shoot a visible target and the bullet goes into the concrete side walls of the range, I shouldn't be DQ'd. (See second sentence of Rule 10.4.1.) No local rule that says "If you put a round into the sidewalls, you go home.", right?

First - obviously - the designer for any stage, especially an indoor stage, must be especially careful of where bullets go (by design) and include limitations in the WSB where necessary to keep rounds impacting the bullet trap at all times.

However - I believe it is permissable under 10.4.1 to specify that rounds which impact outside the bullet trap are defined as being fired in an unsafe direction. Obviously, if the shooter has fired a legitimate shot at a target, then he cannot be DQ'd ... That one's on the designer/match organizers for not designing and setting it up properly. We had just such a shot this weekend ... It grazed a plastic barrel, deflected, and struck a side wall. Had the shooter shot the wall directly, I would have supported a DQ. (There were no targets he could have been shooting at that would have excused this.) But, as he fired in a legitimate direction and the bullet was deflected by a prop, we simply had to repair a gouge in the plaster. (There's 6" of steel-reinforced concrete behind it.)

For Clarity, 10.4.1 is an Accidental Discharge rule... and I'm good with that, because as long as you DO NOT have a legitimate shot on a target that goes into a sidewall or CLOSE to a sidewall, that's exactly what it is. If you put a target with an engagement that has 30 degree offset to the median and as long as I hit the target I'm good, but 1 - inch outside the D to the left I bounce one off the wall - and call that a DQ - I call that BS. You can set it up so that a miss is a trip home.

[aztecdriver]

I've thought about this a bit -- and there's an option beyond disqualifying the competitor from the match. The host range could simply revoke the competitor's permission to shoot that match. Not a DQ, so scores stand as shot, classifier results go in if the member completed the classifier.....

I could see a scenario of:

1. Warning
   
2. Sorry, you're no longer allowed to shoot here today.
   
3. Sorry, you've done this twice this year, you won't be able to come to back until next year.
   

Perfectly legal, doesn't require a rules variance, though it should be very carefully considered and advertised.......

I don't know what the answer is. A match DQ is out, without a variance. Telling the club to go away/letting it drift away due to a lack of creatively thinking about the problem, and implementing a solution that addresses everyone's concerns also strikes me as problematic.

Perfectly legal under what?

I think Nik is going here - and I completely disagree with him.

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at the match director’s discretion, if the person:

a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match, or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

6.4.5 A Match Director enforcing Rule 6.4.4 must submit a detailed report to USPSA within seven days of the occurrence

1. What behavior is being demonstrated - how many DQs have they earned? Under what rule? --- right....

2. When the MD submits that report to USPSA - we're back to the original question. You implemented a local rule and used a match barring method to address it.

It still doesn't work.

[SteveZ]

So here's my thoughts on this. As we all know...pointing a muzzle over the berm isn't a safety issue...guns don't just go off on their own it takes something else and typically that something else is a finger. If a club initiates a local rule (and it was somehow allowed under USPSA, eg they changed rule 10.5.2 to the "IPSC" version), the shooter will have to learn a new technique and thats keeping the gun flat during loading/reloading/unload. Ok, but the primary safety issue still exists...a finger in the trigger guard during those events that causes the AD itself. I would suggest a better line of thinking would have the shooter learn the a "new technique" of keeping their finger out of the trigger guard during loading/reloading/unload.....hey, don't we already have a rule that prohibits that? Of course we do.

Creating a "muzzle pointed over the berm" rule is subjective for the RO to assess...how far is the berm from the shooter, how high is the berm...whats the angle of the muzzle....how fast can I do trigonometry...did I bring my calculator...did I leave the coffee pot on at home? For those clubs that want to initiate some club rule to help prevent AD over the berm and out of the range...I would suggest educating them first and then if they MUST initiate some local rule...suggest they have something about finger in the trigger guard when its not supposed to be (loading/reloading/unloading) and forget about the direction of the muzzle...if they're really wrapped around the axle about muzzle direction...then suggest "finger in the trigger guard with the muzzle pointed over the berm". From a USPSA perspective, we could care less about the second part of the condition (muzzle direction) but we do already have rules about fingers in trigger guards...and THAT we can enforce within the existing rules. The club is happy because they've got their safety rule....USPSA is happy because they still have a sanctioned match.

[remoandiris]

(and it was somehow allowed under USPSA, eg they changed rule 10.5.2 to the "IPSC" version), the shooter will have to learn a new technique and thats keeping the gun flat during loading/reloading/unload.

IMO, this is the only way it could be fair across the board...USPSA makes a rule change and EVERYONE keeps the gun flat during reloading. From the super squads down to the newest shooter, they all keep it the same. Plus, you don't have to worry about local rules when you shoot in a different state.

Do I think a rule change will happen? No. There are other ways for ranges to deal with encroachment, but they can be VERY expensive.

[Chuck Anderson]

Chuck,

How feasible would it be for USPSA to adopt a rule like IPSC has in place for this type situation? Specifically IPSC rule 10.5.2, which says: "Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point uprange, or past the default, or specific safe angle of fire during a course of fire, (limited exceptions: see Rules 5.2.7.3 and 10.5.6)."

Something like this would give individual clubs the ability to designate muzzle safe points such as the top of the berm. Instead of potentially losing clubs, I would think USPSA would rather take a more proactive position and try to work with clubs. Especially clubs that are in urban areas where bullets leaving the range is a very bad thing.

It used to be in the USPSA rule book. It's an IPSC rule so when we used to have the combined rule book, it was there, although I think there was a US exemption.

I would definitely vote no if it came up again. There are lots of different ways to deal with this other than using arbitrary club rules. Just like when NW Section made the local rule about double tapping steel. The range in this case is going to continue to allow USPSA matches. They met last night and came up with a change in the wording that reloading and movement must be done with the finger outside the trigger guard (sound a bit like an already existing USPSA rule?)

The downside with allowing local rules is that there are clubs who just plain don't like USPSA or at least one aspect. I really don't want to travel to different matches, shoot at one where I can't have my muzzle over the berm, another where I can reload on the move, another that doesn't allow drawing from the holster etc. If we allow host clubs to dictate additional rules to govern USPSA matches we end up with an incomprehenisible mashup of rules that no one can figure out. The other potential downside would be liability. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm sure a few will chime in. If we have say 10 clubs that institute local rules that say no muzzle over the berm at any time. The other 100 don't. One of those other clubs actually has an AD over the berm. Yes it's bad, but I can't imagine someone wouldn't allege negligence because they didn't apply the same local rule as the other few clubs. By everyone using the same rule we can point to that safety record and use that to show how safe the sport really is.

The upside to not allowing local rules is it allows us to negotiate from a better position. If we go in and say, well sure we could have the local rule, but we don't want to, the host club is going to pounce on that and institute it. We give them the option. We'll do everything we can to stay here, but we have to follow these rules. Most clubs will reconsider.

[rgkeller]

Is it a verified FACT that the USPSA President will NOT give a club/range a waiver that permits the club/range to enforce a

"no muzzle pointing over the berm" rule in a USPSA match?

Edited December 15, 2011 by rgkeller

[ErichF]

The same issue can be had over equipment. There is a certain make/model of holster out there, and I own one of them myself, that some FL ranges have banned because some fool shot himself in the leg during a draw. I'll be damned if I drive across the state to a match to only be turned away because they don't like my holster...which is fully approved by USPSA rules...