CocoBolo Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Ok, I didn't put you and the picture together. Now that is one wierd cone comp, I've not seen one with such a large area before the first port. Definately Old school. If you plunder the Brazos site Bob did a good write up on old school comps. Bob says something that takes 10gr or more to hit PF and punch it up to 175-180pf. N350 is a good starting point but I would go to something slower like AA#7 (10.5gr with 124/125 at 1.235, or N105, or of all things BlueDot. If the barrel is as old as the gun it is probably for .356 bullets, so try some of those as well, if you run .355's and it takes more powder than it should to make pf then its for sure a .356. You could slug it to find out. With a cone comp it is important that it fit tight in the slide if it has any wiggle room at lock up then your accuracy will be crap. I happen to have a Brazos Thunder Comp II cone pm me if you are interested. It is about 100 pages down in the classifieds. And again if you want to tame the beast Dawson DP-2. I'm really banking on your wisdom CocoBolo. I'm currently putting together a box of parts to start a build in 2012 for open. From all the post I've seen over this forum. It looks like you've owned just about every open setup on the planet. So, I'm going to roll the dice on the DP-2. I've owned a few and plulled the trigger on a bunch more. I think you will be very happy with the DP-2. Now those LimCats may not cycle like some prefer, however, maybe that isn't the answer, they were shot by the top guns at the Nationals! Just think how fast they woud be if they weren't trying to over come a bad design? Get your slide weight down to arond 10-10.5 OZ, DP-2 Comp, and throw a 10# recoil spring if cone comp or 9# if Bull comp and load about any open powder in 38S or one of the 3 or 4 powders for 9 major - Silhouette, HS-6, AutoComp, or 3n37 with 125gr bullet your set. Better get it before they are all gone: http://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=1E50000-1094593465 If you are worried about weight Aluminum guide rod or carbon fiber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorF Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 I will indeed Mo. Can I find his contact info on our site? Thanks again for all the info guys. I think I'm first going to track down a few mags and some new springs for a few that I have now. Then I'm going to get a better triger job done and maybe try a few recoil springs from an 8 to a 10. Cheers, Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I will indeed Mo. Can I find his contact info on our site? Thanks again for all the info guys. I think I'm first going to track down a few mags and some new springs for a few that I have now. Then I'm going to get a better triger job done and maybe try a few recoil springs from an 8 to a 10. Cheers, Trevor Don't go lower than 10lbs. Unless you are having problems, do not change springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SN13 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Why not lower than 10 lbs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Why not lower than 10 lbs? Yeah, I agree... Why the blanket statement? Cause I've always run a spring lighter than that A better decision is - ask the gunsmith that built the gun what spring range is acceptable in it, based on his engineering and design.... Failing that, I would not recommend lighter than 8#, just because of increased wear to the gun with springs lighter than that (and that's based on experience - I've run a 6# spring for a time). I'm shooting a Brazos Pro Sx right now - that's got a Recoil Master system in it that measures out to 9#, but it's a short gun and needs a tad more spring for best reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Ok, I didn't put you and the picture together. Now that is one wierd cone comp, I've not seen one with such a large area before the first port. Definately Old school. If you plunder the Brazos site Bob did a good write up on old school comps. Bob says something that takes 10gr or more to hit PF and punch it up to 175-180pf. N350 is a good starting point but I would go to something slower like AA#7 (10.5gr with 124/125 at 1.235, or N105, or of all things BlueDot. If the barrel is as old as the gun it is probably for .356 bullets, so try some of those as well, if you run .355's and it takes more powder than it should to make pf then its for sure a .356. You could slug it to find out. With a cone comp it is important that it fit tight in the slide if it has any wiggle room at lock up then your accuracy will be crap. I happen to have a Brazos Thunder Comp II cone pm me if you are interested. It is about 100 pages down in the classifieds. And again if you want to tame the beast Dawson DP-2. I'm really banking on your wisdom CocoBolo. I'm currently putting together a box of parts to start a build in 2012 for open. From all the post I've seen over this forum. It looks like you've owned just about every open setup on the planet. So, I'm going to roll the dice on the DP-2. I've owned a few and plulled the trigger on a bunch more. I think you will be very happy with the DP-2. Now those LimCats may not cycle like some prefer, however, maybe that isn't the answer, they were shot by the top guns at the Nationals! Just think how fast they woud be if they weren't trying to over come a bad design? Get your slide weight down to arond 10-10.5 OZ, DP-2 Comp, and throw a 10# recoil spring if cone comp or 9# if Bull comp and load about any open powder in 38S or one of the 3 or 4 powders for 9 major - Silhouette, HS-6, AutoComp, or 3n37 with 125gr bullet your set. Better get it before they are all gone: http://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=1E50000-1094593465 If you are worried about weight Aluminum guide rod or carbon fiber. You'll note I said his OLD comp, as in the one from the '90's with the tunnel under the chambers, which is night and day from the comps he is producing now, also I was not referring to guns Johnny built, just ones I shot that had that comp installed. I'm sure the Limcat gun built with that comp were set up to run it. But if you just screwed it on the end of a typical 5" bullbarreled Super it was just awful to shoot. It was soft and flat, but a ton of extra weight out front and very sluggish. The Limcat comps of today are still relatively long, but with the way Johnny cut his slides and sets up the gun they look like a great gun, I gotta give one a try. That kinda drives home the point though, there are many comp designs, but there's more to making an open gun shoot right than just the comp. A great comp on a badly set up gun won't work as well as a great gun with a mediocre comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Just because it is probably not necessary to run lower than 10lb...in any Major Power factor gun. Beating the crap out of an older gun is not something he should be trying to do. Everything he has written tells me it is an older gun. He is not using a recoil master,...he is using a regular recoil system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Some guns need to run lighter than 10# to function, Relliot is running an 8# in his gun and it's identical to mine. I'm running a 10# but it's about maximum I can run, an 8# would be better, and I have tried an 8#, I just didn't like how the gun felt or tracked. With the slide lightening and Ti comp I'll be putting in, there's a good chance I'll be running an 8# or 9# next year. Running too heavy of a spring can be just as hard on a gun as too light of a spring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Some guns need to run lighter than 10# to function, Relliot is running an 8# in his gun and it's identical to mine. I'm running a 10# but it's about maximum I can run, an 8# would be better, and I have tried an 8#, I just didn't like how the gun felt or tracked. With the slide lightening and Ti comp I'll be putting in, there's a good chance I'll be running an 8# or 9# next year. Running too heavy of a spring can be just as hard on a gun as too light of a spring good to know. You guys must have some heavy slides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 For a new open shooter, the comp won't matter much. Get a load that runs the gun and shoot the damn thing. One thing I will say about "working the comp" with slower powders is that all that energy has to go somehwere, it can't just be removed. What I found with slower powders is that as vertical movement is reduced, sideways movement is increased. Yes, the gun was "flatter" but the dot began to shimmy from side to side and its movement was unpredictable. I actually had to wait longer for it to settle down or ignore the shimmy and shoot a messy sight picture. To the OP, shoot a few thousand rounds through that ol' girl before you do anything. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Some guns need to run lighter than 10# to function, Relliot is running an 8# in his gun and it's identical to mine. I'm running a 10# but it's about maximum I can run, an 8# would be better, and I have tried an 8#, I just didn't like how the gun felt or tracked. With the slide lightening and Ti comp I'll be putting in, there's a good chance I'll be running an 8# or 9# next year. Running too heavy of a spring can be just as hard on a gun as too light of a spring good to know. You guys must have some heavy slides. I have a lightened, short slide in my Dawson open guns. He recommends a 7 lb spring for reliability, though I usually run an 8 so I don't have to chase the brass so far. The slide cracked on one of them. At about 65,000 rounds. The other has 70K+ on it on the original slide. On a properly built gun, light spring don't seem to hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Some guns need to run lighter than 10# to function, Relliot is running an 8# in his gun and it's identical to mine. I'm running a 10# but it's about maximum I can run, an 8# would be better, and I have tried an 8#, I just didn't like how the gun felt or tracked. With the slide lightening and Ti comp I'll be putting in, there's a good chance I'll be running an 8# or 9# next year. Running too heavy of a spring can be just as hard on a gun as too light of a spring good to know. You guys must have some heavy slides. No, not really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) my slide must be really light, as I was told to use a 10-11lb...by some guy in France named Eric. Anyhow, guns are all different. Hopefully it works out for Trevor. Edited November 19, 2011 by Mo Hepworth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Yes, the gun was "flatter" but the dot began to shimmy from side to side and its movement was unpredictable. I actually had to wait longer for it to settle down or ignore the shimmy and shoot a messy sight picture. You just needed a better comp, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Why not lower than 10 lbs? Yeah, I agree... Why the blanket statement? Cause I've always run a spring lighter than that A better decision is - ask the gunsmith that built the gun what spring range is acceptable in it, based on his engineering and design.... Failing that, I would not recommend lighter than 8#, just because of increased wear to the gun with springs lighter than that (and that's based on experience - I've run a 6# spring for a time). I'm shooting a Brazos Pro Sx right now - that's got a Recoil Master system in it that measures out to 9#, but it's a short gun and needs a tad more spring for best reliability. No doubt Dave you are one of of the smartest open gun guys on the planet. But let me splain my recoil spring recommendation. I consider the 10# a good starting point, as you mention a bit heavier spring helps the gun run reliably, without reliability might as well stay home. With a new open gun shooter, the first suprise is the abrupt nature of the open gun, yep, things happen fast and the 10# takes the edge off of that. I also recommend double plugging, the super loudness of the gun can rekindle the natural instincts to fear the thunder. The right recoil spring can vary in the same gun with the same load based upon important factors like the shooters physical ability to control the gun, and their expierence and preferences at the time. Over time as the comfort factor the expierence and the ability to control the gun goes up the recoil spring rate can go down. Figuring out which one works best for you, is a matter of trial and error, try each one, put it to the timer test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 No doubt Dave you are one of of the smartest open gun guys on the planet. But let me splain my recoil spring recommendation. Mo Hepworth said "Don't go lower than 10lbs." - that's what I was referring to, Ron I consider the 10# a good starting point, as you mention a bit heavier spring helps the gun run reliably, without reliability might as well stay home. With a new open gun shooter, the first suprise is the abrupt nature of the open gun, yep, things happen fast and the 10# takes the edge off of that. It can appear to take the edge off in some cases, that's true - it really doesn't slow anything down, though, in the end. The gun opens a bit slower, but closes faster. It just changes how it feels. In some guns, though, the 10# causes reliability issues - you'll notice Roy saying the same thing, and he's a pretty sharp engineering open guy, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 my slide must be really light, as I was told to use a 10-11lb...by some guy in France named Eric. And Eric's running a CZ-ish platform (yes, I know it's made by EAA, but it's still CZ pattern) - those guns need different spring rates than 1911s in all their springs.... Typically, it runs a lighter mainspring and a heavier recoil spring... At old major, we were running 12-14# springs in those guns, whereas in 2011/1911 platforms, we were running 10-12# springs (plus, typically, FP stop geometry changes vs. now)... Now, just take both down a couple of pounds... If Eric spent a couple of years on a 2011 platform, I would greatly suspect you'd see him running something lighter than a 10-11# spring in the gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Hello: Just buy some recoil springs in the 7-11lb range and try them. What one person may like is not what you may like. Recoil springs are cheap and it is something that you can play with at the range. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Just so y'all know, there's a "Gun Springs" forum on here, chock full of good spring info. And recently I posted some high-speed video of different springs in a Limited gun. Most of that learning will transfer nicely to Open guns , except that with lighter slides, they cycle faster, so staying open longer for better feeding is a good thing. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=138964 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hello: You could also buy a coule of comps and try them to see what works the best. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hvsmith Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hello: You could also buy a coule of comps and try them to see what works the best. Thanks, Eric Eric: Did you ever perform the testing using the various comps & rate them as you were planning a while back? I was looking forward in seeing the results you came up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hello: I have not done the testing yet. It takes some time to fit all the comps to one barrel and slide. Hopefully over the winter I will be able to do it. I have all the popular powders for 38SC and have a bunch of local guys who have their pet loads who will shoot the pistol also. After that I will try it on a 9mm. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOvalBruin Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) For my gun (SV IMM 38SC w/ 3n38) I like the 7lb the best, using more spring than that gives me more flip and more dip. The 7lb is very flat though. The ammo has to be high quality though, let the OAL wander a little and Ill get FTFs. Edited November 21, 2011 by BlueOvalBruin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hello: I have not done the testing yet. It takes some time to fit all the comps to one barrel and slide. Hopefully over the winter I will be able to do it. I have all the popular powders for 38SC and have a bunch of local guys who have their pet loads who will shoot the pistol also. After that I will try it on a 9mm. Thanks, Eric Eric, you would be performing the ultimate sacrifice for your fellow man (me included) if you would publish the results of that type of testing. Sounds fascinating - expensive and time consuming - but like a lot of fun - and can't wait for the results. Sorry to hijack the subject matter. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorF Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 So how do we define whether the comp is working effectively or not? Is it when the muzle has very little rise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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