40 S&W Major Load

[gino_aki]

There's no such thing as a "soft" feeling major load with a 155gr projectile.

This is true. You want soft with 155's you will have to go Minor. That being said, my preferred load is a 155 Precision over 6.9~7.1 gr of Silhouette or SR7625 at 1.200 OAL, Fed primer. Then again, I AM a Heavy Equipment Mechanic.

Hmmm, just checked what my powder measure was throwing, prior to reset to 5.9gr of SR7625 for working up load for 165-170gr bullets and according to the Cabela's electronic powder scale it IS throwing 5.9gr charges. I may need to visit the club's chrono again. This charge was supposed to be 6.9. and my beam scale is broken so can't compare. The 6.9 charge weight was worked up on the beam scale and checked with the electronic. Just re-calibrated the electronic.

Head scratching time.

Edited June 19, 2012 by gino_aki

[co-exprs]

I must be bucking some kind of trend. I don't mind running powder at or a little above max for the short term, but for general high volume shooting, I like to find a powder which makes power factor mid to low in the range. Coming from Single Stack I prefer heavier bullets, so I run 180gr jacketed (either Zero or Precision Delta). When I tried the fast powders (231 and faster) I had to push them all at max or slightly above to make PF. So I run Univeral. Only hiccup is that Universal needs some pressure to burn completely and the 4.9gr, 1.170" load I run is too low in the pressure range. Problem solved with magnum primers. I get good consistent velocity and about 170pf. I've run the load for 2 years with good results and the load seems to be fairly temp stable as well with only slight shift in winter and summer. I was genuinely surprised and pleased with how soft and flat the pistol runs. What I'd like to find is a powder which bridges the gap by giving me velocity right in the middle of the powder range and burns clean without magnum primers, but I don't ever have any trouble keeping magnums stocked up in the man cave.

[mjohn]

OOOOOPPPPPSSSSS..............

Disregard the following. Found the answer. 200gr.

Also, could not figure out how to delete the post.

PJB45,

Could you please tell us the bullet grain. I did not see it listed in your post.

Edited June 20, 2012 by mjohn

[CHA-LEE]

I shot Clays for a long time using Zero 180gr FMJ, 4.6gr drop on a 1.225 OAL. This is a nice "Soft" major PF load that worked well for a few years. I did have 3 - 4 case head separations while using Clays though.

I did a bunch of testing with VV N310, VV N320, and WST trying to find an alternate load that would have the same "Soft" feel as the Clays load I was using but didn't have the same spiky pressure issues. VV N310 felt softer than Clays but just barely made major PF and the primers were very flat telling me that this was already at the ragged edge of being over pressure. VV N320 didn't have any pressure issues, shot very clean and easily made major PF. But the N320 powder had a more harsh "Thump" type of recoil feel when compared to Clays. Much to my surprise Winchester Super Target (WST) had the exact same "Soft" recoil as Clays but had zero signs of overpressure and easily made major PF. The only down side to WST is that it is dirtier than Clays, but cleaning the gun a little more frequently is not a big issue. The only thing you have to watch out with WST is that it is very temperature inverse sensitive. The hotter the temp is the slower the velocity gets so you need to do your chrono testing with "Hot" ammo to make sure its still making major when hot.

My new load for Major PF USPSA loads is using a Rainier Ballistics 180gr FMJ Round Nose bullet, 5.5gr drop with a 1.225 OAL. This load consistently produces a 170PF in hot temp conditions through my 4.75 inch barrel EAA Witness Limited. I will be using this load from now on and will enjoy many thousands of rounds of soft shooting ammo that is not at risk of case head separation.

[jmbaccolyte]

CHA-LEE: Are you referring to WST in the load you mentioned? If this question sounds stupid, please cut me some slack, as I am tired.

PS: I love your avatar.

Edited June 23, 2012 by jmbaccolyte

[CHA-LEE]

CHA-LEE: Are you referring to WST in the load you mentioned? If this question sounds stupid, please cut me some slack, as I am tired.

PS: I love your avatar.

Yes, I am sorry I omitted that. I am using WST powder in my new load. Sorry for leaving out that important detail.

[jmbaccolyte]

CHA-LEE- You didn't omit it, I thought from the context that was what you meant, but figgured I should double check. I have a question, Hogdgon's website lists 4.3 grs of WST as maximum (although at only 32,400 psi, i.e. less than SAAMI max pressure) for the Hornaday 180 gr jhp bullet at an OAL of 1.125" OAL, but Sierra's 5th edition reloading manual lists 5.7 gr of WST as maximum with the Sierra jhp bullet at the same OAL. I know there can be significant differences due to bullet ogive, jacket strength/thickness and differences in individual barrels (as well as bullet weight & OAL variations), but that seems excessive. What do you and the other more experienced reloaders and shooters think?

Edited June 26, 2012 by jmbaccolyte

[CHA-LEE]

jmbaccolyte> I think you always need to take the "minimum" and "maximum" load recommendations in the reloading books with a grain of salt. Bullets, Brass, Primers, Crimp, OAL, and Barrels all have a significant impact on how the velocity is affected. Not to mention the atmospheric, temperature and other environmental variables that also affect the velocity. I find it very hard to believe that the load testing that the reloading manuals publish is done in super strict testing conditions that would allow for 100% unique data collection. For example, I highly doubt that they are doing the load testing in an environment controlled room where the temperature and air density is always the same. From a mechanical stand point I highly doubt that they completely scrub the barrel making it squeaky clean between each shot fired so accumulated lead or burned powder in the barrel does not affect the velocity. The same could be said for barrel temperature.

So really, the published load data in the reloading manuals shouldn't be looked at as the be all end all guide to reloading. Since there will always be unknown variables to account for and consider the only thing you can do is start low and work your way up. Personally I would never use the "Maximum" recommended load data in any reloading manual. I would instead work up a load by gradually adding more powder and look at the brass/primers for over pressure signs all the while logging the velocity to know where where its at. If the final maximum load drop equals more or less than what the manual says, who cares.

[co-exprs]

I'm gonna have to give WST another try. I had tried to work up some 45 loads with it once and didn't feel it was any better than 231 (which I already had lots of). I still have a pound in my shop. Think I'll dig it out and mess around with some 40 loads.

[jmbaccolyte]

Thanks, CHA-LEE

[co-exprs]

Ok, I relent. It's been a while since I ran my limited gun. I've been having so much fun shooting my single stack, I just couldn't bare to put it down. I decided to break out the race gun tonight and found that for the same power factor, the 40 using 180gr and Universal was noticably snappier than my 45 using 200gr and 231.

I'm heading down to the basement now to make up some 40's with WST and N320. If I can make the limited gun run like my single stack, I'd be a pig in poop.

[co-exprs]

Well that was interesting. I tried a few WST loads and worked up to 4.7gr with my usual 1.170" OAL and 180gr precision delta jacketed bullets. The recoil was noticably softer, but I was only running 875fps ave. I looked at the cases and didn't see anything to indicate excessive pressure. Not sure why I couldn't make major when others have. I'm running a pretty run of the mill set up, 5" 2011 with a Barsto barrel and 12lb spring.

I went out on a limb and also made up some loads with 7625. Everyone seems to like N320 and 7625 seems to fall close to 320 on the burn charts. 5.7gr and CCI primers was just about perfect, providing an average velocity of 935fps and a tight spread. Recoil was slightly better than with Universal, but not monumentally so. If you shot the two rounds back to back you can tell. Probably the more noticable improvement being in more consistent velocity made the front sight movement more consistant.

There just doesn't seem to be much info out there regarding 7625 in 40 major. Can anyone give any solid reasons why it isn't very popular. I mean it ran pretty good through my pistol tonight. It was consistent and easily made major, with slightly better recoil characteristics to Universal.

[CHA-LEE]

Well that was interesting. I tried a few WST loads and worked up to 4.7gr with my usual 1.170" OAL and 180gr precision delta jacketed bullets. The recoil was noticably softer, but I was only running 875fps ave. I looked at the cases and didn't see anything to indicate excessive pressure. Not sure why I couldn't make major when others have. I'm running a pretty run of the mill set up, 5" 2011 with a Barsto barrel and 12lb spring.

I went out on a limb and also made up some loads with 7625. Everyone seems to like N320 and 7625 seems to fall close to 320 on the burn charts. 5.7gr and CCI primers was just about perfect, providing an average velocity of 935fps and a tight spread. Recoil was slightly better than with Universal, but not monumentally so. If you shot the two rounds back to back you can tell. Probably the more noticable improvement being in more consistent velocity made the front sight movement more consistant.

There just doesn't seem to be much info out there regarding 7625 in 40 major. Can anyone give any solid reasons why it isn't very popular. I mean it ran pretty good through my pistol tonight. It was consistent and easily made major, with slightly better recoil characteristics to Universal.

You probably need to run a 5.2 - 5.3gr drop with WST to get it up into Major. Also remember that WST is very temp sensitive. These 100+ degree days will slow it down. This is why I am running 5.5gr on my load.

[twodownzero]

My 4.6 grains of Solo 1000 at 1.2" with a 180 moly is pretty soft. It only went 167 over the chrono at A5 this year, but it was pretty damn hot. I have run up to 4.9 before. Those were closer to 180 pf.

[co-exprs]

I had another range session with more loads. These were all shot with Precision Delta 180gr FMJs.

5.2gr WST, CCI primers, 1.180" oal, 169 PF

5.7gr 7625 CCI primers, 1.180" oal, 170 PF

5.0gr N320 CCI primers, 1.180" oal, 169 PF

5.1gr Univ Rem mag primers 1.180" oal, 167 PF

Head to head,

WST felt the softest on the wrist, but the front sight moved about the same as my Univeral load. Of the 4 it had the most variance at the chrony.

7625 was again very slightly softer than Univ and the front sight was very slightly more tame too. This load was chrony consistent.

N320 felt exactly the same as my Universal load, with absolutley no difference in felt recoil or front sight movement. It was the most chrony consistent.

Real world,

After shooting these rounds back to back to back, I set up a small run n gun course to practice on. I wanted to see if these slight differences amount to anything on a course of fire. This is where the rubber meets the pavement after all. You know what.... All of these loads were so close, I really couldn't tell any difference, once the clock started. My splits were all the same. My front sight tracking was all the same. Times were all about the same. If I was forced to pick one over the others, I'd honestly at this point say that I liked the 7625 load better than the other 3, overall. It's true that the WST was slightly softer than my other loads, but it didn't amount to anything real in terms of front sight management (at least in this test). The 7625 load at least had the advantage of being very chrony consistent and I didn't have to push it beyond printed specs or use magnums to get it up to major. Honestly though, I could use all 4 of these loads interchangably. Just as a sanity check I gave all 4 of these loads to my best shootin buddy, who is also an experienced Master. I didn't tell him which was which and just asked him to hammer some steel. His observations were the same as mine. Very slight differences, but he also felt that they were so close that the differences were non impacting to scores. I've got some Bayou bullets on the way and will try WST with those as that might actually be a significant difference. If they ever get here.

[mwx40x40]

I had another range session with more loads. These were all shot with Precision Delta 180gr FMJs.

5.2gr WST, CCI primers, 1.180" oal, 169 PF

5.7gr 7625 CCI primers, 1.180" oal, 170 PF

5.0gr N320 CCI primers, 1.180" oal, 169 PF

5.1gr Univ Rem mag primers 1.180" oal, 167 PF

Head to head,

WST felt the softest on the wrist, but the front sight moved about the same as my Univeral load. Of the 4 it had the most variance at the chrony.

7625 was again very slightly softer than Univ and the front sight was very slightly more tame too. This load was chrony consistent.

N320 felt exactly the same as my Universal load, with absolutley no difference in felt recoil or front sight movement. It was the most chrony consistent.

Real world,

After shooting these rounds back to back to back, I set up a small run n gun course to practice on. I wanted to see if these slight differences amount to anything on a course of fire. This is where the rubber meets the pavement after all. You know what.... All of these loads were so close, I really couldn't tell any difference, once the clock started. My splits were all the same. My front sight tracking was all the same. Times were all about the same. If I was forced to pick one over the others, I'd honestly at this point say that I liked the 7625 load better than the other 3, overall. It's true that the WST was slightly softer than my other loads, but it didn't amount to anything real in terms of front sight management (at least in this test). The 7625 load at least had the advantage of being very chrony consistent and I didn't have to push it beyond printed specs or use magnums to get it up to major. Honestly though, I could use all 4 of these loads interchangably. Just as a sanity check I gave all 4 of these loads to my best shootin buddy, who is also an experienced Master. I didn't tell him which was which and just asked him to hammer some steel. His observations were the same as mine. Very slight differences, but he also felt that they were so close that the differences were non impacting to scores. I've got some Bayou bullets on the way and will try WST with those as that might actually be a significant difference. If they ever get here.

Have you compared them for accuracy? It would be interesting to see if they are all similar.

[co-exprs]

Nothing formal since I was chasing recoil characteristics. I did step back to the 35yd line and put a few onto a 12" plate. I had no trouble hitting steel with all of the loads and I didn't have to shift my POA.

For those who might be new shooters and just tuning in, many of the loads discussed here are from guys who have been shooting a long time. Differnt shooters have different priorities, varying levels of experience, see thier sights differently and manage recoil differently. What works well for one might not work be the ultimate for another. If it seems as though we are splitting hairs, it's because we are. Using the info here is a good place to start, however eventually everyone has to find his/her own path the excellence.

[67ls7vert]

Very good conversation on the WST. I have never used it but I will give it a try.

[Artsville]

For 40sw I am a N320 guy. But I switched from 231 to WST FOR 45. it is softer with a bit more velocity. I luv it in 45.

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[Deputy1199]

Try 6.0 grs of WSF with the 155gr Berrys at the same OAL -- less snappy.

[dixondave]

After hearing of others sucess with WST I tried it and it is now my favorite load for making major in .40. My pet load for my Para 16-40 is a 200 gr Zero bullet loaded to 1.19" over 4.9 grs WST for a velocity of 850fps. Very soft and very accurate and the gun loves it.

[RippSpeed]

I would like to contribute to this conversation...

I shot nothing but WST for nearly 2years strickly in my 5" Edge... But I hated how I had to such a large variance in velocity in the chrono. The larges variance I had was 70fps...

Went temps went up loads felt really good...

these are on 200gr Bear Creek Moly

My Load was

This was for my 5" Edge

-1.180 OAL

-4.1Gr Winter

-4.3Gr Summer

-0.421 Crimp

-Mixed Brass

-on Winchester Small Pistol Primers

On my 6"

-1.180OAl

-3.9Gr Winter

-4.1Gr Summer

-Mixed Brass

-on Winchester Small Rifle Primers

because of the constant variation on velocity I wanted to give N320 a try ... I just want to shoot for 167 to 168pf and lock it in... It seems that with my 6" sight tracker ... went the load is closer to 165pf she flat as can be... Almost feels like minor... But the higher pf I go somewhere in the 170 to 175pf ... the gun would be more flippy which I dont like...

I run a 9lb to 10lb springco recoil spring on my sight tracker w/ a aluma buff; 17lb ismi main spring...

Edited January 6, 2013 by RippSpeed

[dixondave]

RippSpeed

What bullet are you using?

[RippSpeed]

RippSpeed

What bullet are you using?

edited my post and showed ... I use 200gr Bear Creeks

[rcc96]

TJ...try loading longer...1.180...