elkboy Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 My 3 gun experience is limited, so my $.02 may not be worth even that much. I don't seen why a single pellet hole in a stationary clay would count, when a steel plate must fall to count. Now, the High Plains Challenge paints targets between shooters I imagine, as the driving forces behind that match are always calling for it to be done at all matches. So, wouldn't a single pellet strike on a freshly painted target be a hit? I'm with Mr Kelley, bust the darn clay. Incosistency with flippers is maddening, especially when the guy in front of you knocks all the poppers down, has the clays all go 15 feet high and easily powders all 4 of them. You get up, hit the poppers only to have 1 clay go 10 feet high, and the others barely 5 or 6 feet, and get 2 or 3 misses. I recently bought 2 MGM flippers, the ones with the fiberglass arm. I have them and the full size poppers mounted on 1/4 sheets of 1/2 inch plywood. They toss the clays much more consistently, and because everything is bolted together, if the popper moves, so does the flipper. The large plywood base keeps the popper from sinking into the ground as it repeatedly falls. Another option could be a manual sporting clays trap, set up for Teal, using a light spring. Even in stronger wind, good altitude would be attained. If a club has the clays resources, such as five stand there are more possibilities. A few weeks ago, a friend of mine ran a shotgun only match in Rhode Island. Since he'd shot Team Challenge matches and has been shooting skeet since he was a kid, he felt that a shotgun is for aerial targets. One stage was set up with 6 traps. Trap 1 was at about 7:00 and threw towards 1:00, trap 2 was at 5:00 and threw towards 11:00, trap 3 was at 3:00 and threw towards 9:30-10:00, traps 4 and 5 were offset from 12:00 and threw straight back towards the shooter who was at 6:00, trap 6 was at 9:00 and threw towards 2:00-2:30. A sequence of 25 birds were thrown. 3 simultaneous pairs, then singles in order from traps 1-6 until the 25 birds cycled. A 4 second delay was between the targets. You could load from your gear or from a loading block that was made for the Team Challenge. From the start, it took 84 seconds for the stage to cycle through. 2 people counted the hits. Even the people that had very low hits were laughing when they finished. I guess that kind of stage would be like shooting a whole lot of grenades as they came by. I'll now go back to observing. I like the plywood idea, going to have to try that out. I am going to attempt to meld 5 stand into a "timed" event at a all shotgun match in May. Shooter indicates when he wants the birds released by stepping into the stand. I did a quick trial run last week and enjoyed it very much. Especially the funny looks from the regular 5 stand crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I like the plywood idea, going to have to try that out. I am going to attempt to meld 5 stand into a "timed" event at a all shotgun match in May. Shooter indicates when he wants the birds released by stepping into the stand. I did a quick trial run last week and enjoyed it very much. Especially the funny looks from the regular 5 stand crowd. I used Tee nuts to anchor everything to the plywood. Then 3/8-16 hex head bolts. The nuts don't need another wrench, and don't fall out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I think a bayonet charge would be in order on the mover..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Hey Dan! Fastening everything to plywood works well to help with inconsistent flipped heights! here's some other thoughts about flipped clays; Some (if not most) of the rest of the "inconsistencies" with flipped clays can be atributed to REARWARD falling poppers. They can fall slowly, or be driven down quick "with a heavy hand" dependant mostly upon how well the popper is hit! A light hit will probably cause the popper to fall slowly, hitting the flipper with less momentum, causing the clay to not go so high. A heavy/hard hit will DRIVE the popper down, hitting the flipper harder, causing the clay to go higher. So, the shooter's hit will have a direct effect on the flip. Much more subtle, but kind of akin to shooting a star the better way, top down, or the worse way, bottom up. Put lots of shot on the popper and the bird will flip high! Almost miss the popper and barely push it over, you get a low flip. Another problem with rearward falling poppers is they sometimes have a tendancy to flip the bird toward (or even over) the shooter. Try em with a forward faller. they will flip more to consistent heights, but the popper can still fall faster or slower dependent upon how it is hit. We have been using flippers that are not attached to the popper. Lets us change the angle they flip, and we also use a lot of forward fallers, but not exclusively. But when the popper doesn't protect the bird from being shot while its in the flipper, a no-shoot plate or hard cover needs to be in place so it doesn't get shot before being flipped...(must be activated first...) jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 ok, so if I don't like clays that fly, flip or are unscoreable in a major match, I don't go to that match... If I like clays that fly, flip or are unscoreable just make sure it is a match with no prize table. Now I understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sahlberg Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I go to matches to shoot, yep, shoot targets with whatever gun I can use. I love Combat Shotgunning because you are using a great "power tool" and you can shoot much faster than you can trying to throw one small piece of lead downrange that scores 1-5 points or knocks a piece of steel over. Shotgunning in every sense of the word is fast, furious, and fun. A target is just what we call something that we shoot at. What is a good clay target? Who cares, it is just something to shoot at! On shotgun stages do I care if it is steel, flying clay, stationary clay, or flip up clay? No, a target is a target to shoot at! Every match that I have been to there are variations on non-stationary clays due to the wind. How much advantage or disadvantage do I have with a stage flipping up a clay at 50" or 70" or faster / slower because of the wind? Dunno and don't care, it is a target worthy of my shooting at so that I can score without a penalty! Taller and shorter people also have these same issues of advantages or disadvantages with some stages. So What? Either you came to shoot or came to complain. I go to shoot! If I have a bad day of shooting, it still beats a good day of complaining. If you really do not like the stage, for any reason, just take a zero and don't shoot it :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Next people will want rifle targets backlit so everyone can see them at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 How about a beer garden for after shooting enjoyment? It would be a good place to debate this subject in comfort! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1chota Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Before you accuse.... STC : STILL NOT 3 GUN! (think about how STC is done) ericm If a match can score 3 guys wailing away at 50 clays at the same time, I think it is possible to score 1 dude wailing away at one clay at a time. I will bring up whatever charges that I see fit against you later. When are you back in AZ???? well, Kelly, he did have that van down by the elementary school, ya know. all in jest. however, the vagrancy laws should be put back in effect. reckon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 20, 2011 Author Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hey, c'mon, let's heat this thread up....they're talking about clay birds in the 3gn thread, fer gosh sake!!!! A single bb hole in a stationary bird is a hit, simple as that for officiating. NO flying birds for score unless DEDICATED match staff (NOT THE RO!!!) is at the stage to make the call. Let's call him.....oh....A BIRD WATCHER C'mon!!!! This dead horse ain't gonna beat itself!!!!! ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I'm sure Jesse will rush out and buy a HD telephoto capable video camera with a directional control on his shotgun. He'll be able to show the RO the BB chipping the edges of his clays. Makes all scoring issues a mute point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djeffers Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 How about a beer garden for after shooting enjoyment? It would be a good place to debate this subject in comfort! Are you sure people wouldn't complain about the temperature of the beer? Or, who got the better seats....bleacher or lawn chair? I just enjoy shooting, if you can't hit the target you need more practice (regardless if it is flying, swinging, rolling, hopping, flipped, etc.). Now, I know I can't hit anything.....but, I might be able to strike a nerve on an Internet forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 A single bb hole in a stationary bird is a hit, simple as that for officiating. ericm Eric, True, it's a hit, so is an edge hit on a plate that doesn't fall, or what about a single non A hit on paper, all don't count without a penalty of sorts, whether it's a failure to nuetralize, or the time required to go back and knock the plate/popper down with your pistol or even shotgun. Jesse's comment about a chip being left on the holder is far different that a clay that is intact until you get within 3 feet to see a black dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 20, 2011 Author Share Posted November 20, 2011 Dan: Your points about steel and paper are valid. An edge hit on a plate, for example, is a miss if the plate does not fall. BUT.....a clay bird falls in the category of a FRANGIBLE TARGET. A single bb hole in a stationary FRANGIBLE TARGET has met the requirement to make the target "frange" The thinking that a FRANGIBLE TARGET has to "frange" or break in a certain way or to a certain extent would be like saying that your above steel plate has to land a certain distance behind the stand to be scored, nevermind that it fell. Think about it. ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkboy Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 In reading this entire thread again the main complaint is "flying clays are unfair because". If I buy into this concept then every 3 gun stage I have ever shot is unfair "because" of the wind, the sun, the rain, the empty hulls and casings, the mud, a cloud, the headlights, the whistle pig, etc. without even going into targets. I guess the only way to make this sport fair is to build a indoor climate controlled range, make sure we are all equally rested before our run and have nothing but 100% reviewable targets. I agree calls go both ways but I am here because it is the most fun I have ever had in sports. If I wanted a perfect sport I guess I would take up chess! Until that time LONG LIVE THE CLAY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Eric wanted you to THINK about it...Environmental conditions are not controllable, the use of flying clays is controllable. Not even close to the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 fran·gi·ble adj \ˈfran-jə-bəl\ Definition of FRANGIBLE : readily or easily broken Eric I checked, there is no such word as "frange" in the Merriam Webster dictionary. If a frangible target is one that is easily broken, then break the darn clay! Personally, for stationary targets, I prefer the small steel plates that I've shot at Blue Ridge and Rocky Mountain. I believe that Kurt and Trapr have been using clay size round plates (4" diameter) at the High Plains Challenge. I guess the only fair target, and game is punching only paper. That's kind of boring though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted November 20, 2011 Author Share Posted November 20, 2011 GOOD, GOOD.....See, I made you think enough to look in the dictionary (of course I knew that "frange" wasn't a word, hence the QUOTE MARKS) Now I need you to think about your definition of a scored stationary clay bird and articulate that definition very clearly, so that we may examine what it means to "break" a stationary clay bird, and how it may be applied fairly to all shooters from 20 ga #9 shot to 12 ga #6 shot. We haven't even started on flying birds yet. ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 GOOD, GOOD.....See, I made you think enough to look in the dictionary (of course I knew that "frange" wasn't a word, hence the QUOTE MARKS) Now I need you to think about your definition of a scored stationary clay bird and articulate that definition very clearly, so that we may examine what it means to "break" a stationary clay bird, and how it may be applied fairly to all shooters from 20 ga #9 shot to 12 ga #6 shot. We haven't even started on flying birds yet. ericm Eric, This discussion would be far better with some sort of beverages after a match! It was a pleasure meeting you at Rocky Mountain, and I hope our paths cross again. I'm of the belief that a broken clay should be visible from where the shooter is located. In trap, skeet or sporting clays a chip breaking off is visible. A marginal hit (dusting the bird) doesn't count, hence my preference for a large hunk of clay being missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkboy Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 So in thinking about frangible targets if I took Pat's idea of cardboard and combined it with a clay by inserting a cardboard disc into the clay I would have a "verifiable" target. The cardboard disc would be retreived and scored. A hole from a pellet would score. The clay then becomes a delivery system instead of a target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 So in thinking about frangible targets if I took Pat's idea of cardboard and combined it with a clay by inserting a cardboard disc into the clay I would have a "verifiable" target. The cardboard disc would be retreived and scored. A hole from a pellet would score. The clay then becomes a delivery system instead of a target What if it falls out during the launch? Is this from a flipper or a trap? If it's from a trap, the bottom of the clay needs to be empty for it to fly a decent distance. Eric opened a can of worms. I think it's in the Miller gene pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Ok...so I expect all those that don't like clays, either flying and/or stationary, from here on out not to support and will not attend all the big matches! If you don't think their fair then don't shoot the matches! I love the moving targets and smaller squads anyhow Bunch of "Hippocrates"! Putting on my Nomex...again... RLTW, Busyhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Ok...so I expect all those that don't like clays, either flying and/or stationary, from here on out not to support and will not attend all the big matches! If you don't think their fair then don't shoot the matches! I love the moving targets and smaller squads anyhow Bunch of "Hippocrates"! Putting on my Nomex...again... RLTW, Busyhawk Scott, The bitchin' is as much of it as shooting! Thank you for your time as an R.O. at the big matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 How is it that entire shooting sports (skeet, trap and sporting clays) revolve around busting aerial clay targets but we feel that they are too diffciult or inconsistent to score? If flying clay is good enoguh for the Olympics, I think we can manage to score them them too. I am all for flying clay target presentations. We push the other 2 gun to their limits and potential, why not so with the shotgun. Plus flying clay are more fun to shoot than simply knocking over pepper poppers. Now, kellyn...we are only 3 gunners this scoring thing is tough, no really it is, dam it, quit your laughing right now! Apparently you are correct. It must be tough because 3 gun MD's have about nine different ways of doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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