Magazines in Safe Area?

[StaciLyn]

Say.... From the time you park the car in the lot till you bag your pistol and head home.

Am I correct in assuming that since this is a USPSA Rlues thread, you shoot USPSA?

Looking forward to hearing from you

Actually, you don't need to be unloaded from the time you park your car to the time you head home. The USPSA rules were updated a while ago so that our cold range rules do not interfere with the carry of a defensive sidearm to/from matches:

2.51 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone.

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualified.

I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to (and am fairly certain I didn't) imply that a person needed to be unloaded from the time he/she parked to the time he/she headed home. I was curious to hear how the competitors at the range and/or ranges that West Texas Granny frequents do things from those times (start to finish). Since she states she'd like to see shooters handle handguns AND ammo in the safe areas, then followed with the question, "so you folks don't run cold ranges?", I was a bit baffled.

[West Texas Granny]

Say.... From the time you park the car in the lot till you bag your pistol and head home.

Am I correct in assuming that since this is a USPSA Rlues thread, you shoot USPSA?

Looking forward to hearing from you

Actually, you don't need to be unloaded from the time you park your car to the time you head home. The USPSA rules were updated a while ago so that our cold range rules do not interfere with the carry of a defensive sidearm to/from matches:

2.51 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone.

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualified.

I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to (and am fairly certain I didn't) imply that a person needed to be unloaded from the time he/she parked to the time he/she headed home. I was curious to hear how the competitors at the range and/or ranges that West Texas Granny frequents do things from those times (start to finish). Since she states she'd like to see shooters handle handguns AND ammo in the safe areas, then followed with the question, "so you folks don't run cold ranges?", I was a bit baffled.

Well our USPSA match usually takes up 4 ranges. Ranges 2A-2D. Yes we have bleachers and they are covered. We also have an archery range,club house,grill, bar and pro shop. It's an outdoor range and requires a vehicle to go from one end to the other. Range 1A is an LE dedicated range. Range 1B is open to rifle pistol and shotgun as are range 2and 3. Range 4 is 4 separate shotgun only ranges. Range 5 is rifle only out to 1,000 yards with individual shooting positions. Range 6A, is a general pistol range (20 yard), Range 6B is a covered 25 yard pistol range and Range 6C is usually reserved for conceal carry qualifications but is open when the range gets crowded. Range 7 is the 100 yard rifle range. It's also covered with individual shooting benches. Range 8 is the plinking range. Range 9 is another rifle range in development. I think it goes out to 600 yards at the moment.

As far as matches I shoot well here they are. Presently I shoot the USPSA match, the IPSC101 match, military bolt action match, conceal carry match ( using your conceal carry weapon or centerfire pistol and 22 pistol), this month I will shoot my first high power match and if lucky I will start shooting smallbore matches sometime next year. Pretty much takes up my weekends.

As far as how the match is conducted. Cold range, safe areas are at your vehicles, no cycling of live ammo is allowed and this has upset some reloaders in the past but what can one say. No weapon can be loaded until the shooter is in the start box and has received the command from the RO to do so. Other parts of the safety briefing cover such areas as low flying aircraft over the range, the possibility that some idiot has wandered into the field of fire on a quad or by foot. Plus there is the wildlife to watch out for and much more that I'm having trouble remembering as I watch Firefly

[ac4wordplay]

... safe areas are at your vehicles, ...

At USPSA matches?

I'm not a fan of using a vehicle as a safe area. Your club sounds like it's a great facility - I'd hope it could find a little money for dedicated safe areas close to every bay.

(I'd rather not think this --> it already has dedicated safe areas, but doesn't require their use and allows people to use vehicles instead.)

(I'd also rather not think this --> it already has dedicated safe areas, but although their use is required, people routinely ignore the requirement, and common practice is to use vehicles instead.)

[West Texas Granny]

... safe areas are at your vehicles, ...

At USPSA matches?

I'm not a fan of using a vehicle as a safe area. Your club sounds like it's a great facility - I'd hope it could find a little money for dedicated safe areas close to every bay.

(I'd rather not think this --> it already has dedicated safe areas, but doesn't require their use and allows people to use vehicles instead.)

(I'd also rather not think this --> it already has dedicated safe areas, but although their use is required, people routinely ignore the requirement, and common practice is to use vehicles instead.)

Forgot to mention the club has range safety officers covering all of the ranges in addition to those part of any match. One saved me awhile back as I was setting up on range 5 which is the 1,000 yard range to do some shooting (200yards) when he caught the glint of a reflection off a window behind the berms. If he hadn't I would have been shooting down range when someone was there because as sure as the sun rises in the east I didn't see a thing until the fool came driving out from behind a berm. They had left no indication that there was anyone using the range. Not even a range bag was sitting on one of the benches.

As far as tables go that would be around 20 if the club was to provide them.

Edited November 6, 2011 by West Texas Granny

[Ronnie j]

To quote a very close friend "JUST DAMN"

[remoandiris]

Until a few years ago, a range near Orlando had no designated safe areas. The trunk of your car was the safe area to holster up prior to and bag after the USPSA match.

Could be there is so much space at this west Texas range, safe tables/areas aren't somthing they think about/require.

[Thomas H]

Could be there is so much space at this west Texas range, safe tables/areas aren't somthing they think about/require.

Entirely possible. (Still sounds like a bad idea, from my viewpoint, but that's okay, we don't all have to have my viewpoint. )

That all being said---this still doesn't make WTG's "cold range" comment make any more sense.

WTG---did you mean that you both handle guns and ammunition in the same area, but aren't allowed to do so anywhere else unless under the supervision of an RO? Or did you not understand that USPSA rules means that (for places with defined safety areas) you cannot handle ammunition in the safety area, but can anywhere else---but that you CAN handle firearms in the safety area, but not anywhere else, unless under the the supervision of an RO?

People asked you about your understanding of a "cold range" regarding how USPSA matches are run after you made several comments about cold ranges and such---and your answers didn't really have much to do with "cold ranges."

What do YOU mean when you say "cold range"? What exactly is allowed in your "safe areas"? And what do you mean by "no cycling of live ammo is allowed?"

You said: "No weapon can be loaded until the shooter is in the start box and has received the command from the RO to do so." ----that matches what is true for USPSA matches, by the way.

(For other folks---I realize that I'm just re-asking what you've already asked, but since it didn't actually get answered, I thought I'd try again. I'm curious as to how things are run at WTG's range. The only range I've been to in Texas was the DoubleTap ranch, and [unsurprisingly] it matched every other USPSA match I've attended. WTG's---sounds a little different.)

[West Texas Granny]

Could be there is so much space at this west Texas range, safe tables/areas aren't somthing they think about/require.

Entirely possible. (Still sounds like a bad idea, from my viewpoint, but that's okay, we don't all have to have my viewpoint. )

That all being said---this still doesn't make WTG's "cold range" comment make any more sense.

WTG---did you mean that you both handle guns and ammunition in the same area, but aren't allowed to do so anywhere else unless under the supervision of an RO? Or did you not understand that USPSA rules means that (for places with defined safety areas) you cannot handle ammunition in the safety area, but can anywhere else---but that you CAN handle firearms in the safety area, but not anywhere else, unless under the the supervision of an RO?

Our safe areas are our vehicles. You can do maintenance on your weapon and you can reload your mags,moon clips or speed loaders there but you cannot load your weapon even with snap caps. You cannot cycle live ammo through ones gun which I've been told that some who reload do to insure that no jams or other problems exist. I don't reload so I really can't say but the ban on the cycling of live ammo has been part of the safety briefing since I started shooting said matches.

People asked you about your understanding of a "cold range" regarding how USPSA matches are run after you made several comments about cold ranges and such---and your answers didn't really have much to do with "cold ranges."

Our practice is weapon is unloaded, holstered with hammer down. Revolvers are unloaded and holstered, semi's are holstered on safe and do not have a magazine in them be it empty or not. You are not allowed to unholster your weapon and show your buddy the latest tweak or add-on you made to your weapon. It stays holstered until instructed otherwise by the RO or you are at your vehicle which is the designated safety area. Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF. Understand that not only does the match have it's safety officers but the range operators have roving Range Officers in golf carts who keep tabs on everyone. Be it a USPSA match, some other match or someone out for some weekend range time. Range Safety officers are omnipresent. .

What do YOU mean when you say "cold range"? ..................See above

What exactly is allowed in your "safe areas"? ..........................You can work on your weapon. You can load your magazines, moon clips or speed loaders but you cannot load your weapon. The loading of a weapon is by order of the RO only and only occurs on his command with the shooter in the start box, range clear and the RO satisfied that it's safe to proceed with the loading of the weapon.

And what do you mean by "no cycling of live ammo is allowed?"............... You cannot load a weapon and cycle live rounds through it by racking the slide. Same thing applies if I wish to practice my revolver reloading. Can't do it. The shooter does not load the weapon until given the command to do so by the RO. Snap caps are no different than live rounds. Cylinders will be empty and magazines Will be removed from the magazine well. Failure to comply will result in serious consequences to the offender. This is a range where at one time drawing a weapon from a holster was forbidden. I kid you not.

You said: "No weapon can be loaded until the shooter is in the start box and has received the command from the RO to do so." ----that matches what is true for USPSA matches, by the way.

(For other folks---I realize that I'm just re-asking what you've already asked, but since it didn't actually get answered, I thought I'd try again. I'm curious as to how things are run at WTG's range. The only range I've been to in Texas was the DoubleTap ranch, and [unsurprisingly] it matched every other USPSA match I've attended. WTG's---sounds a little different.)

[Thomas H]

Our safe areas are our vehicles. You can do maintenance on your weapon and you can reload your mags,moon clips or speed loaders there but you cannot load your weapon even with snap caps. You cannot cycle live ammo through ones gun which I've been told that some who reload do to insure that no jams or other problems exist. I don't reload so I really can't say but the ban on the cycling of live ammo has been part of the safety briefing since I started shooting said matches.

Our practice is weapon is unloaded, holstered with hammer down. Revolvers are unloaded and holstered, semi's are holstered on safe and do not have a magazine in them be it empty or not. You are not allowed to unholster your weapon and show your buddy the latest tweak or add-on you made to your weapon. It stays holstered until instructed otherwise by the RO or you are at your vehicle which is the designated safety area. Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF. Understand that not only does the match have it's safety officers but the range operators have roving Range Officers in golf carts who keep tabs on everyone. Be it a USPSA match, some other match or someone out for some weekend range time. Range Safety officers are omnipresent. .

You can work on your weapon. [in safe areas] You can load your magazines, moon clips or speed loaders but you cannot load your weapon. The loading of a weapon is by order of the RO only and only occurs on his command with the shooter in the start box, range clear and the RO satisfied that it's safe to proceed with the loading of the weapon.

You cannot load a weapon and cycle live rounds through it by racking the slide. Same thing applies if I wish to practice my revolver reloading. Can't do it. The shooter does not load the weapon until given the command to do so by the RO. Snap caps are no different than live rounds. Cylinders will be empty and magazines Will be removed from the magazine well. Failure to comply will result in serious consequences to the offender. This is a range where at one time drawing a weapon from a holster was forbidden. I kid you not.

Hm. So why did you ask people about cold ranges? Every USPSA match (by rule requirement) is a cold range---even according to your own definition of a cold range. (Other than the defined "safety area" part.)

USPSA matches are supposed to have a defined safety area where you do NOT handle ammunition in any way. You can load magazines anywhere except for the safety areas, which means that there is always at minimum one degree of separation between a firearm and its ammunition. Can't use dummy rounds, either.

You said: "Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF." ---hm. You mean that people are handling firearms and pointing them in completely the opposite direction of the berms used in the course of fire? Interesting.

As for the "cycling of ammo" by reloaders---I've never heard of anyone doing that at a match. (Not saying it can't happen, but I don't know anyone that stupid.) Plenty of people chamber-check their reloaded ammo, but it is a lot easier and faster to do that at home with the barrel pulled from your firearm, and it is stupid to do it with a working firearm. And of course at a cold range that is not allowed. (Matter of fact, simply saying it is a "cold range" precludes it.)

So---in other words, what was the problem you had with USPSA rules at other ranges again? Not only do they at minimum match the rules you stated, but indeed actually are more strict in that you never handle ammunition and firearms in the same place unless under the direction of the RO.

[aztecdriver]

Hm. So why did you ask people about cold ranges? Every USPSA match (by rule requirement) is a cold range---even according to your own definition of a cold range. (Other than the defined "safety area" part.)

USPSA matches are supposed to have a defined safety area where you do NOT handle ammunition in any way. You can load magazines anywhere except for the safety areas, which means that there is always at minimum one degree of separation between a firearm and its ammunition. Can't use dummy rounds, either.

You said: "Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF." ---hm. You mean that people are handling firearms and pointing them in completely the opposite direction of the berms used in the course of fire? Interesting.

As for the "cycling of ammo" by reloaders---I've never heard of anyone doing that at a match. (Not saying it can't happen, but I don't know anyone that stupid.) Plenty of people chamber-check their reloaded ammo, but it is a lot easier and faster to do that at home with the barrel pulled from your firearm, and it is stupid to do it with a working firearm. And of course at a cold range that is not allowed. (Matter of fact, simply saying it is a "cold range" precludes it.)

So---in other words, what was the problem you had with USPSA rules at other ranges again? Not only do they at minimum match the rules you stated, but indeed actually are more strict in that you never handle ammunition and firearms in the same place unless under the direction of the RO.

Agreed - If the range deems the vehicles as safety areas, alrighty... but reloading magazines or moon clips in the safety area is not allowed under USPSA rules, and should be stopped - if it is a USPSA match - and I believe it is because the range is uploading monthly match scores.

It's a card table with a cardboard painted sign.... If they can't come up with a couple designated areas to be safety areas other than cards, I'd be really suspect...

BTW, that's the first time i've heard of "cycling of ammo". I reload, I case gauge them before they go into the boxes for the range. If you are telling me I can't be on the stage getting ready to reset the range and can't pull out a mag and box of rounds to top it off - then it's not following the rules either, and quite honestly much more dangerous by forcing people to do them in the same location they may handle a weapon.

[Skydiver]

You said: "Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF." ---hm. You mean that people are handling firearms and pointing them in completely the opposite direction of the berms used in the course of fire? Interesting.

Although I don't agree with the idea of designating cars as safety areas, I can almost see how this is laid out. Consider a range layout like this:

^ -------

|

N UUUUUUU

The U's are the bays, downrange is South, and the dashes are the parking lot. Presumably, people normally park with their trunks/tailgates towards the bays. (eg. Nose to the north, tail to the south) This would make the "safe direction" that every safe area is suppose to have to be away from the the spectators standing at the opening of the bays. Of course, that only works as long as it's always nose in parking. The minute somebody backs in their car into a parking slot...

Ken has it right. A safety area doesn't need to be complicated. A simple card table or a folding 6-foot table with a sign on it is sufficient. If it can't be a permanent fixture at the range, it should fit easily in the back of a volunteer's truck or SUV for transport on match days.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Skydiver

[West Texas Granny]

Our safe areas are our vehicles. You can do maintenance on your weapon and you can reload your mags,moon clips or speed loaders there but you cannot load your weapon even with snap caps. You cannot cycle live ammo through ones gun which I've been told that some who reload do to insure that no jams or other problems exist. I don't reload so I really can't say but the ban on the cycling of live ammo has been part of the safety briefing since I started shooting said matches.

Our practice is weapon is unloaded, holstered with hammer down. Revolvers are unloaded and holstered, semi's are holstered on safe and do not have a magazine in them be it empty or not. You are not allowed to unholster your weapon and show your buddy the latest tweak or add-on you made to your weapon. It stays holstered until instructed otherwise by the RO or you are at your vehicle which is the designated safety area. Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF. Understand that not only does the match have it's safety officers but the range operators have roving Range Officers in golf carts who keep tabs on everyone. Be it a USPSA match, some other match or someone out for some weekend range time. Range Safety officers are omnipresent. .

You can work on your weapon. [in safe areas] You can load your magazines, moon clips or speed loaders but you cannot load your weapon. The loading of a weapon is by order of the RO only and only occurs on his command with the shooter in the start box, range clear and the RO satisfied that it's safe to proceed with the loading of the weapon.

You cannot load a weapon and cycle live rounds through it by racking the slide. Same thing applies if I wish to practice my revolver reloading. Can't do it. The shooter does not load the weapon until given the command to do so by the RO. Snap caps are no different than live rounds. Cylinders will be empty and magazines Will be removed from the magazine well. Failure to comply will result in serious consequences to the offender. This is a range where at one time drawing a weapon from a holster was forbidden. I kid you not.

Hm. So why did you ask people about cold ranges? Every USPSA match (by rule requirement) is a cold range---even according to your own definition of a cold range. (Other than the defined "safety area" part.)

USPSA matches are supposed to have a defined safety area where you do NOT handle ammunition in any way. You can load magazines anywhere except for the safety areas, which means that there is always at minimum one degree of separation between a firearm and its ammunition. Can't use dummy rounds, either.

Maybe you or someone else can explain the difference between loading mags at a safety table and loading mags somewhere else. You see I can't see the difference and the reasoning behind it is if I go off and reload somewhere else I still have the gun with me so where is the separation and please don't base it on the split second it takes to reload a weapon because if thats it you are fooling yourself. Not only that but to go off somewhere else to reload places the "club" into a high liability situation as one of the match participants now has wandered off to reload and is no longer being supervisied by match safety officials. I remember a thread where the discussion related to when a participant fell under the rules of USPSA for their actions. Following said thought telling people to go elsewhere to reload is an abdication of the "clubs" and USPSA's safety rules.

If you truly wanted separation a supervised safety table would be the answer where the gun/ammo is placed into a designated box under supervision and at a distance from the safety table thereby removing control of the weapon or ammo from the shooter thus making it safe to reload or work on the gun at said table. Of course only one person at a time should be at the safety table. Yet from what I've read in this thread that is not what's happening. In fact the safety table isn't fully monitored if I take what is being said in this thread as truth.

You said: "Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF." ---hm. You mean that people are handling firearms and pointing them in completely the opposite direction of the berms used in the course of fire? Interesting.

Let me try to explain this better as I sometimes don't do a good job.

At our match the shooter shooting the course of fire will have their back to those in the safety area ( vehicles) and those at their vehicles (safety area) will have their back to those shooting and watching the match. This helps to cut down the possibility of anyone being swept by the open end of a firearm.

Now let me ask you a question. How are these USPSA safety tables placed? Will a weapon at these tables sweep anyone because your statement (--hm. You mean that people are handling firearms and pointing them in completely the opposite direction of the berms used in the course of fire? Interesting.) indicates that that people handling guns at the safety table are facing the COF and sweeping everyone in front of them with their firearm. Am I understanding your statement correctly?

As for the "cycling of ammo" by reloaders---I've never heard of anyone doing that at a match. (Not saying it can't happen, but I don't know anyone that stupid.) Plenty of people chamber-check their reloaded ammo, but it is a lot easier and faster to do that at home with the barrel pulled from your firearm, and it is stupid to do it with a working firearm. And of course at a cold range that is not allowed. (Matter of fact, simply saying it is a "cold range" precludes it.)

Well someone at sometime must have done it or it would not be part of the safety briefing. Can we agree on this?

So---in other words, what was the problem you had with USPSA rules at other ranges again? Not only do they at minimum match the rules you stated, but indeed actually are more strict in that you never handle ammunition and firearms in the same place unless under the direction of the RO.

That's not true. It was stated that people have to reload somewhere else with no mention of RO or other safety official and when they do go off to reload they will be in possession of their firearm, handling ammunition maybe even cycling live ammo through their weapon but you won't know as you have told the participant to go somewhere else to reload without the benefit of any safety officers. That's just asking for trouble.

[Sarge]

Geezul Peets! Safety areas(tables) are placed so that they NEVER point at an area of the range where anybody will be. They are generally in empty shooting bays facing a berm or facing into a berm or hillside on club property where no people are going to be.

There is no need for a safety officer to watch people load mags. That is why we can load them wherever we want at a SANCTIONED match, except the safety area. Screwing around with guns in the trunk of a car is for when buddies go out in the country and shoot tin cans it has no place at a SANCTIONED match.

From what I have read I don't think I would shoot a match at the range in question. If you want to get right down to it USPSA should be notified as to what is going on there.

Edited thanks to ac4wordplays nice catch.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Kevin Sanders

[ac4wordplay]

Geezul Peets! Safety areas(tables) are placed so that they NEVER point at an area of the range where nobody will be. They are generally in empty shooting bays facing a berm or facing into a berm or hillside on club property where no people are going to be.

There is no need for a safety officer to watch people load mags. That is why we can load them wherever we want at a SANCTIONED match, except the safety area. Screwing around with guns in the trunk of a car is for when buddies go out in the country and shoot tin cans it has no place at a SANCTIONED match.

From what I have read I don't think I would shoot a match at the range in question. If you want to get right down to it USPSA should be notified as to what is going on there.

I think Kevin meant:

...NEVER point at an area of the range where anybody will be...

And I agree with him entirely. If this is held as a USPSA match, I would feel very uncomfortable and frustrated if I showed up to participate and found the practices described by WTG. I encourage both the Section Coordinator and Area Director to look into this closely. I'm not trying to get anybody's club busted, just hoping this can get figured out, because right now it seems wacko (pardon me, "non-compliant").

ac

Edited November 14, 2011 by ac4wordplay

[West Texas Granny]

You said: "Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF." ---hm. You mean that people are handling firearms and pointing them in completely the opposite direction of the berms used in the course of fire? Interesting.

Although I don't agree with the idea of designating cars as safety areas, I can almost see how this is laid out. Consider a range layout like this:

^ -------

|

N UUUUUUU

The U's are the bays, downrange is South, and the dashes are the parking lot. Presumably, people normally park with their trunks/tailgates towards the bays. (eg. Nose to the north, tail to the south) This would make the "safe direction" that every safe area is suppose to have to be away from the the spectators standing at the opening of the bays. Of course, that only works as long as it's always nose in parking. The minute somebody backs in their car into a parking slot...

Ken has it right. A safety area doesn't need to be complicated. A simple card table or a folding 6-foot table with a sign on it is sufficient. If it can't be a permanent fixture at the range, it should fit easily in the back of a volunteer's truck or SUV for transport on match days.

Just wondering. How many people show up for your local matches? How many safety tables are used?. Do you have one per bay or one for the whole match? Wind and dust devils are something we have to deal with and may very well be a consideration to make vehicles the safety area since your vehicle can provide protection and stability as card tables can be picked up and deposited elsewhere when these come through or the wind picks up.

The range does provide picnic tables on the ranges where we shoot but that is where people sit who are resting or about to shoot. They are in no way large enough to handle the numbers you find in a squad let alone handle the requirements of those using wheelchairs,walkers or on oxygen. Again maybe another reason vehicles are used as safety areas. Who knows? I see using vehicles as safety areas being practical. That being said I would rather have another range set aside just to handle all needs but we already use 4 as it is and I can see in the future our local USPSA either restricting the number of those allowed to shot or going to multiple days which I seriously doubt will be allowed by range management. Just my guess based on the fact that I see more new shooters every time I go to the range. I'm seeing more people at the matches I shoot. Everything seems to be growing in size. Heck even late Friday afternoon is getting busy. Thankfully we will have an indoor range opening next year but I know it too will be busy as you will be able to rent and fire full auto weapons at this indoor range. I hope to be one of their first members. That being said time to head to the gun show.

[spanky]

You said: "Keep in mind that there is 180 degrees of separation from those in the safety area and the COF." ---hm. You mean that people are handling firearms and pointing them in completely the opposite direction of the berms used in the course of fire? Interesting.

Although I don't agree with the idea of designating cars as safety areas, I can almost see how this is laid out. Consider a range layout like this:

^ -------

|

N UUUUUUU

The U's are the bays, downrange is South, and the dashes are the parking lot. Presumably, people normally park with their trunks/tailgates towards the bays. (eg. Nose to the north, tail to the south) This would make the "safe direction" that every safe area is suppose to have to be away from the the spectators standing at the opening of the bays. Of course, that only works as long as it's always nose in parking. The minute somebody backs in their car into a parking slot...

Ken has it right. A safety area doesn't need to be complicated. A simple card table or a folding 6-foot table with a sign on it is sufficient. If it can't be a permanent fixture at the range, it should fit easily in the back of a volunteer's truck or SUV for transport on match days.

Just wondering. How many people show up for your local matches? How many safety tables are used?. Do you have one per bay or one for the whole match? Wind and dust devils are something we have to deal with and may very well be a consideration to make vehicles the safety area since your vehicle can provide protection and stability as card tables can be picked up and deposited elsewhere when these come through or the wind picks up.

The range does provide picnic tables on the ranges where we shoot but that is where people sit who are resting or about to shoot. They are in no way large enough to handle the numbers you find in a squad let alone handle the requirements of those using wheelchairs,walkers or on oxygen. Again maybe another reason vehicles are used as safety areas. Who knows? I see using vehicles as safety areas being practical. That being said I would rather have another range set aside just to handle all needs but we already use 4 as it is and I can see in the future our local USPSA either restricting the number of those allowed to shot or going to multiple days which I seriously doubt will be allowed by range management. Just my guess based on the fact that I see more new shooters every time I go to the range. I'm seeing more people at the matches I shoot. Everything seems to be growing in size. Heck even late Friday afternoon is getting busy. Thankfully we will have an indoor range opening next year but I know it too will be busy as you will be able to rent and fire full auto weapons at this indoor range. I hope to be one of their first members. That being said time to head to the gun show.

My club averages 70 shooters and we have two safe areas.

[Matt P.]

Geezul Peets! Safety areas(tables) are placed so that they NEVER point at an area of the range where nobody will be. They are generally in empty shooting bays facing a berm or facing into a berm or hillside on club property where no people are going to be.

There is no need for a safety officer to watch people load mags. That is why we can load them wherever we want at a SANCTIONED match, except the safety area. Screwing around with guns in the trunk of a car is for when buddies go out in the country and shoot tin cans it has no place at a SANCTIONED match.

From what I have read I don't think I would shoot a match at the range in question. If you want to get right down to it USPSA should be notified as to what is going on there.

You know, after reading this thread, the one word that came to my mind the most was EXACTLY what Kevin mentioned here. "SANCTIONED"

This is not a one sided topic of ranges having all the power. If you are a range and your desire is to "host" a "SANCTIONED" USPSA match, then the USPSA rules only apply. Let's not forget all of the revenue that this sport brings to the range. So it should not be a consideration of "like it or lump it" because quite frankly, i would choose "lump it" and move on to a range that wants to earn money from our sport.

ok, I said my $.02 so please , let the bashing begin.................................

also, BTW, how would an Arbitration committee handle a case if i was DQ'd because I touched an empty mag at the safety area where the local range has a sign not to?

[aztecdriver]

Geezul Peets! Safety areas(tables) are placed so that they NEVER point at an area of the range where nobody will be. They are generally in empty shooting bays facing a berm or facing into a berm or hillside on club property where no people are going to be.

There is no need for a safety officer to watch people load mags. That is why we can load them wherever we want at a SANCTIONED match, except the safety area. Screwing around with guns in the trunk of a car is for when buddies go out in the country and shoot tin cans it has no place at a SANCTIONED match.

From what I have read I don't think I would shoot a match at the range in question. If you want to get right down to it USPSA should be notified as to what is going on there.

You know, after reading this thread, the one word that came to my mind the most was EXACTLY what Kevin mentioned here. "SANCTIONED"

This is not a one sided topic of ranges having all the power. If you are a range and your desire is to "host" a "SANCTIONED" USPSA match, then the USPSA rules only apply. Let's not forget all of the revenue that this sport brings to the range. So it should not be a consideration of "like it or lump it" because quite frankly, i would choose "lump it" and move on to a range that wants to earn money from our sport.

ok, I said my $.02 so please , let the bashing begin.................................

also, BTW, how would an Arbitration committee handle a case if i was DQ'd because I touched an empty mag at the safety area where the local range has a sign not to?

As with all of the description local rules vs. the USPSA rules, this mentality of money and USPSA needs clubs more than it needs to stand up for it's rule book - is - one of my favorite words --- crap. The rules are the rules, whether they are level 1 to nationals. There are no exceptions without approval and it doesn't matter if it's SANCTIONED (lv 2-4) or affliliated (lvl 1) - if it SAYS USPSA on the cover - it better abide by all the rules - especially the safety ones.

If you were DQ'd for touching an unloaded mag because a local match because the local club says you can't - I'd over turn it and then I would immediately call the section coordinator area director. Local rules do not exist - I do NOT care what the club says, they can just take down the name "USPSA" if they insist on doing stuff that way.

[juan]

Geezul Peets! Safety areas(tables) are placed so that they NEVER point at an area of the range where nobody will be. They are generally in empty shooting bays facing a berm or facing into a berm or hillside on club property where no people are going to be.

There is no need for a safety officer to watch people load mags. That is why we can load them wherever we want at a SANCTIONED match, except the safety area. Screwing around with guns in the trunk of a car is for when buddies go out in the country and shoot tin cans it has no place at a SANCTIONED match.

From what I have read I don't think I would shoot a match at the range in question. If you want to get right down to it USPSA should be notified as to what is going on there.

You know, after reading this thread, the one word that came to my mind the most was EXACTLY what Kevin mentioned here. "SANCTIONED"

This is not a one sided topic of ranges having all the power. If you are a range and your desire is to "host" a "SANCTIONED" USPSA match, then the USPSA rules only apply. Let's not forget all of the revenue that this sport brings to the range. So it should not be a consideration of "like it or lump it" because quite frankly, i would choose "lump it" and move on to a range that wants to earn money from our sport.

ok, I said my $.02 so please , let the bashing begin.................................

also, BTW, how would an Arbitration committee handle a case if i was DQ'd because I touched an empty mag at the safety area where the local range has a sign not to?

As with all of the description local rules vs. the USPSA rules, this mentality of money and USPSA needs clubs more than it needs to stand up for it's rule book - is - one of my favorite words --- crap. The rules are the rules, whether they are level 1 to nationals. There are no exceptions without approval and it doesn't matter if it's SANCTIONED (lv 2-4) or affliliated (lvl 1) - if it SAYS USPSA on the cover - it better abide by all the rules - especially the safety ones.

If you were DQ'd for touching an unloaded mag because a local match because the local club says you can't - I'd over turn it and then I would immediately call the section coordinator area director. Local rules do not exist - I do NOT care what the club says, they can just take down the name "USPSA" if they insist on doing stuff that way.

I would like to hear from somebody else from this club.

I have a hard time believing theres a club this out of controll. does the section cordinator make rounds?

[aztecdriver]

Just wondering. How many people show up for your local matches? How many safety tables are used?. Do you have one per bay or one for the whole match? Wind and dust devils are something we have to deal with and may very well be a consideration to make vehicles the safety area since your vehicle can provide protection and stability as card tables can be picked up and deposited elsewhere when these come through or the wind picks up.

Between 70 and 110 ish at one. about 60-70 in another, and they have between 2-4 safe areas, depending on where you are. Here's the thing - you've already said that's where y'all load ammo - so you think that everyone needs to go to a safe table to load mags and moon clips - which is WHOLLY wrong. When the safety area is used as it is intended in the rule book - as a place to unbag and practice a couple draws, maintain a weapon, all you need is a few seconds to get geared up.

The fact your range says you can load up mags and handle firearms in the safe area means it's violating USPSA rules, and I won't be there. Your running between 20-30 shooters a month, it should be trivial to cart around a folding card table or even just paint lines on the ground up against a berm.

Cars and handling ammo and guns in them at matches driving between the ranges... it's just too dangerous.

[Sarge]

also, BTW, how would an Arbitration committee handle a case if i was DQ'd because I touched an empty mag at the safety area where the local range has a sign not to?

A local range can't DQ you so if I were on match staff it would never make it that far.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Kevin Sanders

[Thomas H]

Maybe you or someone else can explain the difference between loading mags at a safety table and loading mags somewhere else. You see I can't see the difference and the reasoning behind it is if I go off and reload somewhere else I still have the gun with me so where is the separation and please don't base it on the split second it takes to reload a weapon because if thats it you are fooling yourself. Not only that but to go off somewhere else to reload places the "club" into a high liability situation as one of the match participants now has wandered off to reload and is no longer being supervisied by match safety officials. I remember a thread where the discussion related to when a participant fell under the rules of USPSA for their actions. Following said thought telling people to go elsewhere to reload is an abdication of the "clubs" and USPSA's safety rules.

If you truly wanted separation a supervised safety table would be the answer where the gun/ammo is placed into a designated box under supervision and at a distance from the safety table thereby removing control of the weapon or ammo from the shooter thus making it safe to reload or work on the gun at said table. Of course only one person at a time should be at the safety table. Yet from what I've read in this thread that is not what's happening. In fact the safety table isn't fully monitored if I take what is being said in this thread as truth.

A number of people have replied to this already, and several have said it prior to your response---but I'll say it again: At sanctioned USPSA matches (in other words, official USPSA matches held by member clubs) the safety area is the only place on the range where a firearm can be handled other than under the direct supervision of a RO. The safety area is the only place where ammunition may NOT be handled.

This ensures that a competitor following the rules (as monitored by everyone who is a USPSA member, and you'd better believe that people pay attention to it) will never handle a firearm AND ammunition in the same area, unless they are under the supervision of a RO.

Your comments about "high liability situation as one of the match participants now has wandered off to reload and is no longer being supervised by match safety officials" makes no sense. Either 1) you are talking about reloading a magazine into the pistol, which isn't anything we have said is allowed anywhere that isn't under the direction of a range official--and since you are arguing it vs your own range's rules, that means you reload your pistols at your cars, which doesn't makes sense, or 2) you are talking about refilling a magazine, which isn't a safety issue or liability anywhere I've ever been---it is the part about putting it into the GUN that makes it a potential problem.

Let me try to explain this better as I sometimes don't do a good job.

At our match the shooter shooting the course of fire will have their back to those in the safety area ( vehicles) and those at their vehicles (safety area) will have their back to those shooting and watching the match. This helps to cut down the possibility of anyone being swept by the open end of a firearm.

Now let me ask you a question. How are these USPSA safety tables placed? Will a weapon at these tables sweep anyone because your statement (--hm. You mean that people are handling firearms and pointing them in completely the opposite direction of the berms used in the course of fire? Interesting.) indicates that that people handling guns at the safety table are facing the COF and sweeping everyone in front of them with their firearm. Am I understanding your statement correctly?

So---there are berms on the other side of the cars that are parked? So if someone accidentally loads a gun and lets one off, there will be something to stop the bullet? Or is it all empty miles of space?

You see, at USPSA matches, the safety table is always pointed in a safe direction. Safe directions vary, of course, but every one I've seen is either pointing downrange in a empty bay, or faced directly into a berm. I'm not sure why you think people would cause them to be pointed at other people.

I've seen safety tables at numerous ranges---matter of fact, I've never seen one that DIDN'T have a safety table.

{regarding "cycling of reloaded ammo"}

Well someone at sometime must have done it or it would not be part of the safety briefing. Can we agree on this?

No. Not really. That's okay, you don't need my permission or agreement.

Again---the term "cold range" with respect to rules makes it pretty clear. If you have a round in your firearm in any way outside of the course of fire, you are DQed and out of there. That is what "cold range" means. Like several other people, I've never heard of this at-the-range cycling practice that you talked about, don't see any reason why any reloader would do it at the range, and don't see any reason why it would need to be spelled out in any rule set that includes the term "cold range."

But it isn't my range, and apparently they do things differently where you shoot.

That's not true. It was stated that people have to reload somewhere else with no mention of RO or other safety official and when they do go off to reload they will be in possession of their firearm, handling ammunition maybe even cycling live ammo through their weapon but you won't know as you have told the participant to go somewhere else to reload without the benefit of any safety officers. That's just asking for trouble.

That does not make sense. In several ways. (Particularly since you yourself have said that you both handle ammunition AND handle firearms in the same place at your car and not under the supervision of a safety officer.) I think---that I'll just stop here, and simply say that a basic reading of the rules applicable to a USPSA match should make things clear.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf

I will also say that I agree with several other people who have posted that the range rules that are in effect where you shoot USPSA matches are in direct opposition to the rules of safety required by sanctioned USPSA matches.

[Jim Norman]

Does ANYONE here know who WTG is? Where WTG shoots? I get the feeling that WTG is trolling here and just stirring the pot. Can anyone be this dense when the various rules have been explained by so many who are much more eloquent than I.

[remoandiris]

Can anyone be this dense when the various rules have been explained by so many who are much more eloquent than I.

Yeah, I don't get it.

Guns can ONLY be handled at the safe area or under the supervision of an RO. Mags can be loaded anywhere else. As long as the shooter is FOLLOWING THE USPSA RULES, there is ZERO chance of an accidental loading/firing.

How WTG doesn't comprehend that is beyond me.

[Sarge]

Does ANYONE here know who WTG is? Where WTG shoots? I get the feeling that WTG is trolling here and just stirring the pot. Can anyone be this dense when the various rules have been explained by so many who are much more eloquent than I.

You might be on to something. Go take a look at her other posts in other threads. She does seem to be very antagonistic on almost every topic.