underlug Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Hooray! We get to use our 8 shot revolvers in Production! What? There is now a NINE shot limit instead of 8 per shooting position. So it goes. I haven't been able to find a non-competition holster that fits my particular gun. anyway. But, it just amazes me the hostility of the USPSA rules towards revolvers. And don't tell me this time it's ok because I would just be competing against other 8 shot revolver shooters in production. If you shoot any type of revolver in USPSA you will be required by course description to do standing reloads. Rant mode off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 How many revolvers are there in the average USPSA competition? I think if you look at what USPSA does to involve revolver shooters you might sing a different tune considering the tiny number of people who actually shoot them in USPSA. It probably isn't even financially viable to support the division. If they aren't competive in limited class (how many people will even set up 9 shot arrays) then don't use them. There are very few guys who could even come close to semi-auto reloads with a wheel gun. If you want a guarantee to get an award in our area, show up with a revolver. If you want to play with a wheel gun, then fine, but please don't complain when the rules aren't tailered to your choice of firearm and instead to majority of guns that play in a particular division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I know I haven't seen a revolver shooter at my match in over 2 years. There's hardly more than a handful of revolver shooters at any big match, so I'm pretty happy the rule book doesn't hold everyone back just because a handful of folks choose to shoot a revolver. I'm not sure what the thinking was behind changing from 8 to 9 rounds, but having more options available is a good thing for those who put in the work designing stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 Did you ever think that the reason you do not see any revolver shooters...................never mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedStick Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Ah Jon, you did well, you quoted Bubber. "never mind" Only true wheelgun believers know. Quit beating your head against a wall! Everything will be better the end of June! See you there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted May 14, 2004 Author Share Posted May 14, 2004 Looking forward to seeing you all soon. It just amazes me the way USPSA goes out of its way to penalize revolvers. I was really excited about running an 8 shot in Production with, at least, the theoretical possibility of doing the courses of fire without a standing reload. It seems like the people I am perceived to be holding back are really just paranoid about getting beat by a revolver. It probably wouldn't be me anyway. But now, they won't be seeing me there. I quote Bubber all the time. It probably explains my reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 It's good to know we have a good supply of ready-made "victims" in USPSA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I have specifically designed the courses for Area 5 to be revolver friendly, as well as Limited 10 friendly and Production friendly. Now that does not mean shoot 6 reload shoot 6 etc. The concept I am trying is 6 or 7 shots followed by 5 and 5 on long courses. Let's say a revolver is shooting the stage. He shoots 6 does a reload and shoots 1, he is now loaded for the next position where he is required to shoot 5. He reloads as he is moving to the next position and he now has 6 rounds to shoot 5 shots. The L-10 and Production guys shoot the first position, reload and then are able to shoot the next two positions with one magazine. Of course this requires that you do your part and not miss. Not perfect probably, but I am looking forward to seeing how it works. We also have courses that have multiple shooting solutions, so you can pick whatever works best for your gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 I know your heart is in the right place, Gary. I was just venting my disappointment at the rules which effectively render it impossible, however otherwise improbable, for a revolver to compete effectively with autoloaders in any division in USPSA. Thanks for all of your efforts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I don't think USPSA went with the nine round rule to screw the revolver shooters. I think they went there to make nice with IPSC (which has the 9 round rule). And, I think it was a mistake. If any change was need, it should have been IPSC going to 8. We have quite a few shooters in my section that shoot with 8 round mags (not to mention the wheel-gunners). They are at a disadvantage now too. I doubt I can keep those shooter, nor will it be easy to recruit their buddies. Of course, somebody will mention it all can be controlled with stage design. At which point I'll have to put my hat on backwards...as they piss down my back and tell me it's raining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 There is no requirement that arrays must be 9 shots. If that is what you are getting, boot your stage designer. Gary, appreciate the effort. Try 5 , 2 , 4 , 3 , 6 or so. Mix it up. Everyone is not going to reload in the same place. Hail freestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 My theory on that is there are only three divisions that really care about course design. Limited 10, Production and Revolver. If you are shooting Open or Limited you have enough rounds to pick a convient spot to reload, so no problem. When I shoot Open I just shove in a big stick and wait for the start signal. If I need more I'll shove in more. But with the other 3 Divisions it gets important. I have been shooting Production of late and I hate shooting 6 and dropping 4 on the ground I have to carry magazines to the center of my back now to have enough for an emergency. And yes Flex course design can handle your 9 round problem. So get that hat on the clouds are gathering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I shoot Production almost exclusively. Stage design doesn't really matter all that much to me because the worst thing that can possibly happen is it becomes a reload test...And if I have done my part correctly, it is already taken care of before I even start the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Gary, It's not my problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 My mistake then. I gathered you thought it was a bad decision from your previous post about the 8 round mag shooters in your section. Being an SC I just assumed (yeah I know) that you thought it was a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 No, there is nothing in the book saying that course designers must use 9 round arrays. But I think the gripe many wheel gunners have (including myself) is that USPSA isn't encouraging revolver friendly COF's either. The nature of this sport (and any other for that matter), and sport period is people want to compete. Whether against another, or simply themselves, humans like to compete. Revo shooters would like other revo shooters to compete against, and the possibility of standing shoulder to shoulder with an auto from time to time. Most stage designers I know shoot auto's, mostly limited. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me (b/c I've witnessed it) when a stage designer is thinking up a field course or even a speed shoot that most, if any, take into consideration how a revo shooter would approach it. They design courses the way they want to shoot them with the equipment they'll shoot with. I've expressed my displeasure with the course design, but the reply back is "well, you're the only revolver shooter". As Bill Engvall might say, "Here's your sign" Until such a time that USPSA and/or IPSC actively encourages the participation in the revolver division, this little discussion will continue. Yeah, its the same old song and dance, that's because the music hasn't changed. PS - thank you Gary for your efforts, I'm glad to have a AD such as you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I just love revolvers, but face it, the vast majority of IPSC shooters came to shoot and they want a round count. I don't think USPSA is trying to screw the revolver shooters, they are trying to please the majority. A tip of the hat to you guys who are sticking to your guns (no pun intended) but I have given up on revolver division altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 My mistake then. I gathered you thought it was a bad decision from your previous post about the 8 round mag shooters in your section. Being an SC I just assumed (yeah I know) that you thought it was a problem. So for the confusion Gary. You did gather correctly. I do think it is a bad decision. Of course, my mags hold 20...so, maybe I should be happy. By saying it wasn't my problem, I was hoping to point out that it was an issue for others...and for USPSA. As SC, I have to deal with the problem, however. I'm trying to build our numbers one shooter at a time (if need be). This is an added hurdle. I don't know what we get from going to 9 rounds from a position...I do know what we lose. (Just looking out for my shooters.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hey all...don't let my grumbling get anybody down... There are lots match directors out there that are turning out great stage design..and that is the key to all good matches. Get out to shoot...it's all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I agree with Kyle ---- and apparently need to hang out here more often --- so I can learn more about keeping my one revolver shooter a happy camper. Before anyone thinks I'm being facetious --- Yes, I'm concerned about keeping him happy. So far he's one of the first to show up and last to leave --- so I really don't want to annoy him, we can use all the help we can get. While I do think about the various divisions as I design, I may not be thinking about wheelgunners enough. Thanks for the food for thought.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 Sorry to bring up old wounds. The tautology of this thing just gets me down. We don't have rules to allow revolver shooters to compete because we do not have enough revolver shooters to make it worthwhile. But, you don't have enuf revolver shooters to make it worthwhile because the rules preclude their effective and entertaining use. We finally get a break and can use our 8 shots in production but we now have 9 shot arrays which, when used even once in a match, make the revolver non-competitive in any real sense. I really do not think the 9 shot array was directed at revolver shooters, specifically, and was an IPSC accomodation (which I also, philosophically, disagree with), but was made in disregard of anyone wishing to shoot revolver (see tautology above). I was just venting my disappointment with what appears to be a philosophy of disregard to a shooting segment which is hypocritical to the proffered inclusiveness purported by the leadership of this sport. The last match I shot had 10 shot arrays. We all bow to the round count Gods. I, personally, will get an 11 shot production gun for the very occasional USPSA match I will shoot in addition to when my revolver buddies group for a match. It does mean I will shoot USPSA matches a hell of a lot less. Participation is always a function of time, money, and fun derived. Thank you all for your considered responses to my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmark6 Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 I have simplified the problem for myself. Instead of burning up a lot of time complaining about the rules and whining its not fair to me since I shoot revolver, I redirect that time to training, dry fire, range time etc. While my competition sleeps I grow stronger. After less then a year I have gone from being at the bottom to consistent top three finishes. Lot to be said for dedicated training, not much to be said for complaining. If the rules upset you that much, or you can't hang just because of one extra round per array then maybe you should just throw in the towel and shoot a bottom feeder. Sorry for venting but we have a guy a the local matches who makes the morning shooters meeting three times longer then it has to be just by asking a million questions, complaining about the rules and in general just complaining. Frustrates the crap out of the rest of us who go to shoot and have fun. Thanks everyone, I feel much better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted May 31, 2004 Author Share Posted May 31, 2004 Gosh. You're so much better than everyone else. You'll probably go to gun heaven. By simply kowtowing to IPSC and adopting their array rules USPSA blew revolvers from being in any way competitive in production class after granting us entry into that class. They gave us something on one hand and took it away with the other. If you don't think that was worthy of mention, so be it. If all you think I do is bitch and not shoot dream on. See you at the range. Now, I feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmark6 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Underlug, if you are truly a revolver shooter, why does you gun have eight rounds? If you shot it with six wouldn't that make the math easier? Even on a nine round array it simplifies everything. Just a thought, I have to run now, before the angels tell on me for helping a mortal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 Boy, you sure got me there, buddy. I'll try to be a "true revolver shooter" from now on. That was sure the point. And I'm sure "easier math" is very important to you. Dance on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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