Interesting guillotine port

[lawboy]

We had a stage today that I thought was very fun. BUT, it did raise a question about scoring. Part of the stage were four poppers and one round plate. You had a choice of engaging them through a port or running a ways to the right and engaging them from a swinging bridge. The port was about 10 seconds faster. The catch was that the port had a guillotine door. The round plate was set up in front of the poppers and after you shot it you engaged the four poppers. A cable ran behind all four poppers and the first one to fall on it pulled the pin from the guillotine and the port cover dropped, blocking your access to poppers. So, if you did not down them all you could take the failures to engage and the misses, or run over to the bridge and finish the job before continuing on in the course of fire, all the while berating yourself for not shooting from the bridge in the first place. The scoring question arose when a shooter put a round through the port cover. Since props are impenetrable, the question was asked, whether a reshoot was required? The RM ruled that if the round went through the cover and knocked down a popper then it was a range equipment failure and thus a reshoot, otherwise, not reshoot.

Here I am shooting the stage.

[JThompson]

Your RM called it right...

9.1.6.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to

hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range

equipment failure (see Section.4.6). The competitor will be

required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

JT

Edited September 5, 2011 by JThompson

[lawboy]

Your RM called it right...

9.1.6.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to

hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range

equipment failure (see Section.4.6). The competitor will be

required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

JT

Thanks for quoting the rule. Good to know!

[wide45]

You have to expect that door to get shot. Definitely can't make it from steel.

[colt]

That could be a reshoot nightmare!! How many reshoots were there?

Brent

[lawboy]

That could be a reshoot nightmare!! How many reshoots were there?

Brent

I am not aware of any reshoots and from the way the match progressed, I doubt there were many, if any at all.

[kevin c]

I shot that stage, and yes, I put a hole into the closing port (I was one of many, I will have you know ). No joy for me I didn't hit the popper behind.

There were a lot of holes (more than a dozen when I made my run, and two more of five squads followed us). Not too many reshoots, I think. Most people took the plate and then swept the poppers left to right. All the steel targets were offset from the port to the right, so shots passed through the port (or, in my case, the cover) at an angle. The last shots on the right hand popper going through the port cover may have deflected off target.

Newby error on my part - To move to the open port, set up and shoot on the wobbler bridge (nationals prep, don't ya know), and then get back to the rest of the stage on the other side of the closing port was a matter of at least six seconds of movement time alone. All that for one piece of steel that was already engaged. With a hit factor of four to five, it wasn't worth it, but, did I do the math?

Nooooooo........

Edited September 7, 2011 by kevin c

[inkballedtarget]

Oh man thats really tricky.. Clever, buy tricky.

[JThompson]

Oh man thats really tricky.. Clever, buy tricky.

Here's a question for you since it's already been brought up, well sort of...

Since there were holes already in the port from past shooters, obviously they were not taping after each shooter put a hole in it. Given that, is it still REF if you knock down a piece of steel shooting through it? What if the guy has a smoking run and doesn't want a reshoot? Can you make him take one? Which hole was his? Are you sure?

JT

[MVZ]

The door was checked and tapped if needed after each shooter

[lawboy]

Most people took the plate and then swept the poppers left to right.

Kevin, interesting that you mention shooting the poppers l to r. I shot the plate then shot the poppers r to l.

My thinking was that since the popper was in front of the third popper (if counting l to r), it was a faster transition to go from the plate to the right popper and work left. Also, due to the angle of the port, the poppers got progressively closer to you as you worked from r to l, which made for easier hits as you ran out of time.

[kevin c]

Good points, but the poppers were so close together they were equivalent threats (oops, sorry, wrong discipline ) the same difficulty, and many competitors wanted to lean left, into the rest of the stage, as they shot the last target. While it might seem that the left most target would be the natural one to do last for this, your stance (at least mine, from where I was standing) would be more squared and the weight more evenly distributed on both feet while going for the left popper, rather than mostly on the left preparatory to driving off the right foot. Easier to lean left, weight more on the left foot, and rotate your upper body and gun into the right hand target last. Then you pick up the left foot as the sight lifts off the popper and fall into your move left.

(At least, that's what I planned on doing until the frigging port closed on me...)

[lawboy]

Good points, but the poppers were so close together they were equivalent threats (oops, sorry, wrong discipline ) the same difficulty, and many competitors wanted to lean left, into the rest of the stage, as they shot the last target. While it might seem that the left most target would be the natural one to do last for this, your stance (at least mine, from where I was standing) would be more squared and the weight more evenly distributed on both feet while going for the left popper, rather than mostly on the left preparatory to driving off the right foot. Easier to lean left, weight more on the left foot, and rotate your upper body and gun into the right hand target last. Then you pick up the left foot as the sight lifts off the popper and fall into your move left.

(At least, that's what I planned on doing until the frigging port closed on me...)

Well, that is well thought out. Best laid plans of mice and men and all that ...

[BillChunn]

How about making the closing portion of the port soft cover that is easily replaceable. Staple a piece of white cloth on it and replace it before each squad shoots.

BC

[Graham Smith]

How about making the closing portion of the port soft cover that is easily replaceable.

I like that idea and may steal borrow it. Eliminates the issue of equipment failure.

[d_striker]

What if a shooter managed to get 4 shots off at the poppers before the door dropped? There wouldn't be FTE penalties, right? Just the misses?

ETA-Just watched the video with audio and it sounds like the OP got all four poppers. Nice shooting.

Edited April 4, 2013 by d_striker

[kevin c]

How about making the closing portion of the port soft cover that is easily replaceable.

I like that idea and may steal borrow it. Eliminates the issue of equipment failure.

I think soft cover needs to let the shooter see the target? Ha, if not, I can see me deciding to hose through the closed port until I hear the popper ring.

Now, if you're the stage designer and feeling especially evil, you can put metal hardcover around the poppers

ETA: It's been so long since this stage was shot, I'd forgotten that the targets were available from another location, so the issue of not seeing the targets through soft cover that prevents a view of the target is moot.

Edited April 4, 2013 by kevin c

[ktm300]

What if the guy has a smoking run and doesn't want a reshoot? Can you make him take one?

The only re-shoots that are optional are when an RO interferes with the shooter. Notice the word required in the rule below,

9.1.6.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to

hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range

equipment failure (see Section.4.6). The competitor will be

required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

2.3.3.3 A competitor who refuses to reshoot a course of fire, under this

or any other section, when so ordered by a Range Official, will

receive a zero score for that stage, irrespective of any previous

attempt.