Is it okay to hand back a dropped gun to the owner?

[Skydiver]

I didn't want to hijact Kimmie's thread.In that thread Jim said "There is no exception in the rules": My reading of:

10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun. Dropped handguns must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing the handgun, place it directly into the competitor's gun case, gun bag or holster. Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

Means that the gun can't be handed back to the shooter. The gun has to go "directly into the competitor's gun case, gun bag, or holster".

Each time I've dropped my gun outside a COF, the RO has handed the gun back to me. Should I have been DQ'd for accepting it? Or was this just a procedure error on the part of the RO? Or is this common practice and it's okay to waive the rules?

Assuming that the RO truly must put the gun in the holster, for those shooters with Ghost Holsters and other skeleton holsters with locks on the inside or the body side of the holster does the RO have to lock in the gun into the holster, or it's sufficient to just get the gun into the holster?

And the evil question also comes along: if after the RO puts the gun into a skeleton holster, lets go, and then the gun starts to fallout, will the RO be DQ'd if the RO catches the gun with their hands? (We've established in one thread that holstering is done once one lets go, and in another thread that if the shooter traps the falling gun with a hand it's a DQ, but if they pin it with any other body part, not a DQ.)

Edited August 17, 2011 by Skydiver

[Sarge]

While I know what the answer is,(the RO must put it in the holster), I am not sure that is always the best answer. Putting the gun in somebody elses holster is pretty awkward, especially if the RO, no matter how seasoned or experienced, is not familiar with a bikini holster. Hell, if an RO put my gun in my holster and it was not in right and started to fall I am certain I would instinctively grab it. Then I just got DQ'd. I would argue that the RO caused it also.

My thought is that the rule is written the way it is to keep a shooter from dropping a gun and just picking it up and holstering it as if nothing happened.

Like you, the few times I have seen a dropped gun the RO cleared it and gave it to the shooter to holster. As much as I like playing by the rules this is one I would prefer an RO broke if I were to drop my gun. And I would most likely break it if I were ROing a shooter who dropped.

[High Lord Gomer]

Based on the wording of 10.5.14, the RO should NOT hand the gun to the competitor, though I can't find any penalty or even infraction for doing so.

From the standpoint of the competitor, they would be safe since they are under the supervision of the RO.

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

ETA: After reading that more closely the competitor is only Ok if the RO directs them to take it and holster it. I would argue that an RO handing it to me is direction issued by the RO, even though it is non-verbal.

IMO, the RO trying to catch a gun is just as dangerous as anyone else trying to catch a dropped gun and should be DQ'd if they are also a competitor in the match.

Edited August 17, 2011 by High Lord Gomer

[aztecdriver]

FWIW, I believe the RMI that taught my level 1 class suggested that he hands it back to the competitor to allow them to reholster. It's been two years so I may be misremembering, but I think the indication was that the competitor was in the better position to properly holster the weapon and they didn't want to fumble getting a 6k open blaster back in and locked and redrop it.

[Jim Norman]

Aren't you under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF AN RO when he hands you back your pistol?

[remoandiris]

Aren't you under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF AN RO when he hands you back your pistol?

Yes, you are. This is one of theose times when following the intent of the rule may be more important than following the letter.

[Flatland Shooter]

Each time I've dropped my gun outside a COF, the RO has handed the gun back to me.

Just out of curiosity Anthony, how many times have you dropped your gun?????

Bill

[twodownzero]

Aren't you under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF AN RO when he hands you back your pistol?

That was my thought as well. (I'm with you on this one)

Edited August 17, 2011 by twodownzero

[Skydiver]

Each time I've dropped my gun outside a COF, the RO has handed the gun back to me.

Just out of curiosity Anthony, how many times have you dropped your gun?????

Bill

5 Times. Of those 5 times, 3 times in one match all within a 2 hour window because of a bad mod on my WSM II. Of the other 2, the first one the lock on holster broke, and the other time, I tripped while running after a shooter. I kept my eye on the shooter and his gun the entire time so I instinctively just bounced back up. I had fallen on my right side hard enough to wrench the gun out of the holster, as well as have me limping the rest of the day.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

Aren't you under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF AN RO when he hands you back your pistol?

That was my thought as well. (I'm with you on this one)

I tend to agree with that as well.

I'm just curious about the glossing over the "place it directly..." part.

If it's okay to gloss over that part, would it be then okay for the RO to tell the owner of the dropped gun to just go ahead and pick it up, clear it, and holster since the owner is under the supervision of an RO. In general, I'd like to say no, but in the case of the owner dropping his gun into the porta-potty, I would insist that owner retrieve his own gun.

[Sarge]

Aren't you under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF AN RO when he hands you back your pistol?

That was my thought as well. (I'm with you on this one)

in the case of the owner dropping his gun into the porta-potty, I would insist that owner retrieve his own gun.

If you stretch this topic much further it's going to snap.

But in the case of a porta pottie drop, I would insist the shooter notify staff so they can oversee him fishing it out of the depths.

[Chris Keen]

While I know what the answer is,(the RO must put it in the holster), I am not sure that is always the best answer. Putting the gun in somebody elses holster is pretty awkward, especially if the RO, no matter how seasoned or experienced, is not familiar with a bikini holster. Hell, if an RO put my gun in my holster and it was not in right and started to fall I am certain I would instinctively grab it. Then I just got DQ'd. I would argue that the RO caused it also.

My thought is that the rule is written the way it is to keep a shooter from dropping a gun and just picking it up and holstering it as if nothing happened.

Like you, the few times I have seen a dropped gun the RO cleared it and gave it to the shooter to holster. As much as I like playing by the rules this is one I would prefer an RO broke if I were to drop my gun. And I would most likely break it if I were ROing a shooter who dropped.

Kevin, I know what you mean, but the more rules we gloss over because we feel the intent is better than the words .... the more slippery the slope becomes. Like Skydiver said, how far can we stretch that rule. I think we need to be careful here.

Until further notice, or a rule-book change, I would rather follow the letter of the law, that do what ''seems'' better, just because you dont feel comfortable holstering someone else's gun for them.

An RO who simply hands the shooters gun back to them, clearly hasn't read the rule-book lately [or at all].

Edited August 17, 2011 by Chris Keen

[Nik Habicht]

I have some concerns with handing a gun to a competitor in the above scenario. I might be perfectly fine with it, in the confines of a pit. Have the dropped gun occur in the parking lot, or on the walkways behind the pits -- assume I'm asking people to move before retrieving the gun -- and I would probably want to put the gun away. As the RO I have the option of arranging for a gun rug or the shooters range bag to be brought over -- it doesn't have to go in a holster. The competitor could then head for the nearest safety area....

[GrumpyOne]

Aren't you under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF AN RO when he hands you back your pistol?

That was my thought as well. (I'm with you on this one)

in the case of the owner dropping his gun into the porta-potty, I would insist that owner retrieve his own gun.

If you stretch this topic much further it's going to snap.

But in the case of a porta pottie drop, I would insist the shooter notify staff so they can oversee him fishing it out of the depths.

With video cameras present!

[Schutzenmeister]

Aren't you under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF AN RO when he hands you back your pistol?

That was my thought as well. (I'm with you on this one)

in the case of the owner dropping his gun into the porta-potty, I would insist that owner retrieve his own gun.

If you stretch this topic much further it's going to snap.

But in the case of a porta pottie drop, I would insist the shooter notify staff so they can oversee him fishing it out of the depths.

With video cameras present!

Might this be broadcast on "Smellavision?"

[Flexmoney]

SAKO !