Unload and bang

[rtr]

I was ROing a shooter who seems to have completed the COF but I am not sure. He has pulled his gun down in front of him and appears to be racking the slide. Because of my bad position I cannot see the gun. I ask "are you finished?" (note I did not say if you are finished unload and show clear). I then hear a bang and finally position myself to see a gun pointed downrange in front of the shooters stomach with no mag in it. I then have him show clear hammer down and holster.

So what us your call and cite the rule please.

[Nik Habicht]

Proceed with the range commands as normal.

Did any other RO on the stage see anything? Did the shooter own up to anything? If no to both of the prior questions, move on.....

After all, you didn't see anything, right?

And next time, get in a better position, or have better coverage from the scorekeeper....

[wide45]

I was ROing a shooter who seems to have completed the COF but I am not sure. He has pulled his gun down in front of him and appears to be racking the slide. Because of my bad position I cannot see the gun. I ask "are you finished?" (note I did not say if you are finished unload and show clear). I then hear a bang and finally position myself to see a gun pointed downrange in front of the shooters stomach with no mag in it. I then have him show clear hammer down and holster.

So what us your call and cite the rule please.

Based on the info presented, you did not see him violate any rules. If you stopped him, he is entitled to a reshoot. Might be appropriate to call it interference, and offer him the option before he sees time/score. If he accepts stage as shot, time would include the last shot.

[bbbean]

Where did the round hit? Was he reloading?

[bgary]

So what us your call and cite the rule please.

If the shot went over a berm or other unsafe direction, DQ (10.4.1)

If the shot hit the ground within 10 feet of the shooter, DQ (10.4.2)

If the shot occurred while unloading, DQ (10.4.3)

If the shot occured while clearing a malfunction, DQ (10.4.4)

If the shot occured *after* "If clear, hammer down, holster", DQ (8.3.7 and 10.4.3)

If none of the above... no DQ, but the RO should have been in a position where he/she could see the gun. The RO's job depends on *knowing* what the gun is doing... and it is probably worth a post-event conversation with the shooter both to understand what happened, and underscore the need for safety with the shooter.

$.02

[Flexmoney]

It appears he fired a shot while unloading...but you weren't in a position to see/know that? ...nor was the RO on the clipboard?

[lcs]

As an RO you strive for 100% view of the gun at all times. However, you cannot see the gun every second as some shooters are just to fast on some COF, but as the RO you should be able to anticipate the last shooting position and have 100% view of the gun then. You did not use the proper range commands and you did not see what the shooter did or where the bullet impacted. You cannot DQ someone for what you "think" happened.

[Chuck Anderson]

I've RO'd lots of stages, mostly at club matches where it is not possible to see the gun all the time. Poor course design yes, but it's the way it is. Until we all hire professional crews to come build our stages. Normally happens with a doorway or deep port at the end of the course. I'm not going to fault the RO in this case. I've also seen shooters who unload, drop the gun and see that last target they forgot, point shooting it with the last round to save the FTE. No harm no foul. Normally, if I've been paying attention, I kind of expect it. But I agree with everyone else. If you don't know, no DQ.

[Pat Miles]

I was ROing a shooter who seems to have completed the COF but I am not sure. He has pulled his gun down in front of him and appears to be racking the slide. Because of my bad position I cannot see the gun. I ask "are you finished?" (note I did not say if you are finished unload and show clear). I then hear a bang and finally position myself to see a gun pointed downrange in front of the shooters stomach with no mag in it. I then have him show clear hammer down and holster.

So what us your call and cite the rule please.

Based on the info presented, you did not see him violate any rules. If you stopped him, he is entitled to a reshoot. Might be appropriate to call it interference, and offer him the option before he sees time/score. If he accepts stage as shot, time would include the last shot.

+1. Time for the stage includes last shot.

You need to pay attention and use the correct, concise range commands.

Pat

[Graham Smith]

I've also seen shooters who unload, drop the gun and see that last target they forgot, point shooting it with the last round to save the FTE.

I've seen that done a couple times and I did it myself once. But isn't that really pressing the limits of 10.5.9? If there is no mag in the gun then you are either unloading or reloading or clearing a jam, in any case, your finger cannot be on the trigger.

And that's where I have a problem with the action in the original post not being a DQ. Regardless of what the shooter in the OP was doing his finger should not have been in the trigger guard. The only thing keeping this from being an outright DQ is that the RO didn't see an empty magwell until after the shot was fired.

Or am I being overly picky?

[bbbean]

Regardless of what the shooter in the OP was doing his finger should not have been in the trigger guard.

What if he was engaging a target?

[lcs]

I've also seen shooters who unload, drop the gun and see that last target they forgot, point shooting it with the last round to save the FTE.

I've seen that done a couple times and I did it myself once. But isn't that really pressing the limits of 10.5.9? If there is no mag in the gun then you are either unloading or reloading or clearing a jam, in any case, your finger cannot be on the trigger.

And that's where I have a problem with the action in the original post not being a DQ. Regardless of what the shooter in the OP was doing his finger should not have been in the trigger guard. The only thing keeping this from being an outright DQ is that the RO didn't see an empty magwell until after the shot was fired.

Or am I being overly picky?

Overly picky

Nothing says you can't drop the mag and (oops I mike'd that target) then fire that last shot at a target Note: As long as the COF has not officially ended.

I have dropped the mag, realized I missed a target, reloaded a mag from the belt and fired two shots. All quite legal. Don't confuse the above action with "Firing a shot while unloading or reloading".

[Chuck Anderson]

I've also seen shooters who unload, drop the gun and see that last target they forgot, point shooting it with the last round to save the FTE.

I've seen that done a couple times and I did it myself once. But isn't that really pressing the limits of 10.5.9? If there is no mag in the gun then you are either unloading or reloading or clearing a jam, in any case, your finger cannot be on the trigger.

And that's where I have a problem with the action in the original post not being a DQ. Regardless of what the shooter in the OP was doing his finger should not have been in the trigger guard. The only thing keeping this from being an outright DQ is that the RO didn't see an empty magwell until after the shot was fired.

Or am I being overly picky?

Yep, being overly picky. Imagine the scenario, similar to this, but the shooter is definitely engaging a target. Say, end of an open field course, he drops the mag, looks up sees an Alpha, Mike, No Shoot, raised the gun back up to eye line and shoots another alpha. At that point he is most definitely not loading, clearing a jam etc. He is engaging a target. Perfectly legal.

[spanky]

I've also seen shooters who unload, drop the gun and see that last target they forgot, point shooting it with the last round to save the FTE.

I've seen that done a couple times and I did it myself once. But isn't that really pressing the limits of 10.5.9? If there is no mag in the gun then you are either unloading or reloading or clearing a jam, in any case, your finger cannot be on the trigger.

And that's where I have a problem with the action in the original post not being a DQ. Regardless of what the shooter in the OP was doing his finger should not have been in the trigger guard. The only thing keeping this from being an outright DQ is that the RO didn't see an empty magwell until after the shot was fired.

Or am I being overly picky?

Yep, being overly picky. Imagine the scenario, similar to this, but the shooter is definitely engaging a target. Say, end of an open field course, he drops the mag, looks up sees an Alpha, Mike, No Shoot, raised the gun back up to eye line and shoots another alpha. At that point he is most definitely not loading, clearing a jam etc. He is engaging a target. Perfectly legal.

Yep, as is point shooting. Combine the two and it's still legal.

[Pat Miles]

I've also seen shooters who unload, drop the gun and see that last target they forgot, point shooting it with the last round to save the FTE.

I've seen that done a couple times and I did it myself once. But isn't that really pressing the limits of 10.5.9? If there is no mag in the gun then you are either unloading or reloading or clearing a jam, in any case, your finger cannot be on the trigger.

And that's where I have a problem with the action in the original post not being a DQ. Regardless of what the shooter in the OP was doing his finger should not have been in the trigger guard. The only thing keeping this from being an outright DQ is that the RO didn't see an empty magwell until after the shot was fired.

Or am I being overly picky?

That's why the range command is "if you are finished." Actually a range query?

After the " if clear, hammer down, holster" commands the shooter is prohibited from shooting per rule 8.3.7 and 10.4.3. If the gun goes bang then the shooter gets a trip to the Dairy Queen. Never should happen though if the RO is focused on the gun while issuing the correct range commands.

All is answered in the rule book.

Pat

[Graham Smith]

What if he was engaging a target?

I understand and basically agree. In the case where a shooter is finished and drops the mag and spots a blank target and fires their last round to avoid a FTE, it's fairly clear what they were doing.

But are we not now into intent vs action. A shooter drops a mag and fires a shot into the rear berm before putting another mag in. Can they not, under that circumstance, claim that they did it on purpose?

Like I said, I'm being overly picky. But where is the line?

[bbbean]

What if he was engaging a target?

I understand and basically agree. In the case where a shooter is finished and drops the mag and spots a blank target and fires their last round to avoid a FTE, it's fairly clear what they were doing.

But are we not now into intent vs action. A shooter drops a mag and fires a shot into the rear berm before putting another mag in. Can they not, under that circumstance, claim that they did it on purpose?

Like I said, I'm being overly picky. But where is the line?

No need to invoke intent. Did the RO witness the shooter violate the rules? Is there a legal explanation for what happened (even if it is unlikely)?

I do think this is where the RO and shooter have a quiet conversation off to the side, but absent a clear violation of the rules as defined in the book, there's no justification for a DQ.

BB

Edited August 2, 2011 by bbbean

[Jim Norman]

Graham, in your example, the shooter was decidedly NOT engaging a target. In this case, I's say a DQ, he fired at the BERM and then reloaded. sounds a lot like an oops to me. If he fired a shot at a target at the end of he COF, then no DQ. There is a marked difference.

Jim

[Graham Smith]

Graham, in your example, the shooter was decidedly NOT engaging a target. In this case, I's say a DQ, he fired at the BERM and then reloaded. sounds a lot like an oops to me. If he fired a shot at a target at the end of he COF, then no DQ. There is a marked difference.

So, it's pretty much a matter of context?

Even if in my (admittedly a bit overly dramatic) example the shot had gone in the general direction of a target, it would be hard for the shooter to claim that it was done on purpose, it should be fairly clear in light of the context that this was an AD rather than an intentional shot.

[Corey]

Semi-thread drift, but along the very same lines:

IFULSC command is given, shooter drops mag and is looking at a target as he ejects his round in the chamber. Right as the round leaves the gun (still in the air even), he/she decides to make up a miss and grabs a mag off the belt (or re-inserts the one they just ejected if its in their hand), racks a round and takes the makeup shot.

Same opinions or differ?

[wide45]

Graham, in your example, the shooter was decidedly NOT engaging a target. In this case, I's say a DQ, he fired at the BERM and then reloaded. sounds a lot like an oops to me. If he fired a shot at a target at the end of he COF, then no DQ. There is a marked difference.

Jim

There is no rule that prevents a competitor from safely firing a round into the backstop. Why would it be a DQ?

[bbbean]

Semi-thread drift, but along the very same lines:

IFULSC command is given, shooter drops mag and is looking at a target as he ejects his round in the chamber. Right as the round leaves the gun (still in the air even), he/she decides to make up a miss and grabs a mag off the belt (or re-inserts the one they just ejected if its in their hand), racks a round and takes the makeup shot.

Same opinions or differ?

Apparently, they weren't finished.

[Nik Habicht]

What if he was engaging a target?

I understand and basically agree. In the case where a shooter is finished and drops the mag and spots a blank target and fires their last round to avoid a FTE, it's fairly clear what they were doing.

But are we not now into intent vs action. A shooter drops a mag and fires a shot into the rear berm before putting another mag in. Can they not, under that circumstance, claim that they did it on purpose?

Like I said, I'm being overly picky. But where is the line?

The line is where the RO says it is. It really depends on what you see "in that moment." Shooter's will typically react to an unintended shot, which may or may not help in making a determination....

Every situation is unique....

[outerlimits]

If you didn't see it, it didn't happen...

[rtr]

I asked the shooter what he was doing at the time of the bang he replied that he had racked the slide back to unload and the round must have stayed in the chamber. I summoned the MD who issued a DQ. 10.4.3 seems to cover it.

I thought 10.4.3 only coverd it IF the ULASC had been said (that's why I summoned the MD) but I was wrong. Couple lessons learned here.