Adapting to CZ DA/SA from Glock...best practice techniques?

[dbarrym]

Gents - Looking for some advice on the best way to learn how to adapt to shooting a DA/SA trigger.

I'm an occasional USPSA/Steel Challenge competitor. I've been shooting Glocks (G35, G22, and G34) for the last four years, most of that time using a Vanek Custom trigger setup at about 2.5-2.75 lbs. I'm very used to how the Glock trigger feels and staging/preloading the trigger for follow-on shots is very natural for me.

I'm in the process of switching over to a CZ Custom Shop SP01. I really like the way the CZ feels (with thin grips), it's far more accurate than my Glocks, and I really like the smoothness of the trigger in SA. But...the major difference in trigger pull, both in length and weight, between the first DA shot and subsequent SA pulls is really messing me up. Both in practice, and in my first match using the CZ, I am launching the first follow-up SA shot prematurely. The DA trigger staging point is at least 3/8" in front of the SA break point, the DA trigger breaks at 6 lbs vs. 2.4 lbs in SA, and the throw between the SA stage and break is extremely short/quick (less than 1/16").

Question - what is the best way, short of tons more live fire practice, to 'learn' the CZ trigger? Dry practice is difficult, due to the need to pull the hammer back to set the trigger in SA for each pull (i.e, interrupts the 'flow' between the DA/SA pulls).

Might be as simple as "just get used to it", but I am curious to see what others have done. Love the CZ and want to make my limited practice time as effective as possible.

TIA -

Barry

Edited July 31, 2011 by dbarrym

[eerw]

when I started shooting a DA/SA gun..shooting SA was easy enough. POA was POI.

what I needed to master was the first DA shot. My first 20 rounds or so the shot would go low left.

I loaded up a 100 rounds and fired every one of them DA. Working to keep the sights on target, and the trigger press as neutral as possible. I did this slow at first and then was able to do at speed on a draw.

after that 100 rounds my DA shot was right on and all was good. I generally do some drills to keep the skill fresh. but no need for looking for a shorter DA stroke, no need to start from halfcock. just learn to shoot the DA stroke.

[gmg]

ok, here goes. I also shot a glock34 coming into this sport and was the only handgun i had really ever shot but decided to step up to a qyality made gun. For some reason CZ kept calling me. Had never help one before and no one around here has one so it was a big step. Once I reeived it the grips made the gun seem skiny and i couldn't get a good hold with my long fingers. I managed to figure out to use al gtip on left side and wooden grip and right (strong side). The gun then began to point exactly where i was drawing to. From 10yds yesterday i was able to draw and hit 8" plates in 1.6sec consistently. Was putting 3 shots on steel popper from draw before it hit the ground. At one time I almost sold that gun but kept dry firing and drawing on timer. I guess i'm saying it won't be easy and you will have to keep the gun in hyour hand at all times. Practice drawing and pulling trigger back to just before it breaks. You want to be able to prep trigger and fire AS SOON as your sights line up with first target, then it's alpo time. That initial draw and set up on first target is critical. I'll quit rambling now but know it will take hours of drawing and dry firing. good luck. the gun is amazing

[dbarrym]

what I needed to master was the first DA shot. My first 20 rounds or so the shot would go low left.

I loaded up a 100 rounds and fired every one of them DA. Working to keep the sights on target, and the trigger press as neutral as possible. I did this slow at first and then was able to do at speed on a draw.

Thanks - I don't have an issue with the first DA shot, I racked off about 20 practice rounds in DA, all in the A head box at 25 yards.

It's the transition to SA that is messing me up, and that I need to learn/practice. Going from 6+ lbs with the trigger forward to 2.4 lbs with the trigger WAY back is my issue. I can see I'm not alone, lots of mentions here, but no suggestions for a training program to help the learning curve.

Barry

[flack jacket]

Good advice from GMG...

(Using DA/SA 92FS)

For me.. as my hands meet at High compressed ready...

just about ready for full extension, start prepping trigger...

Gradually increase pressure...

as you reach full extension, you were already refining your sights...

then continue to suprise break....

then follow through....

Fello Rudy Shooter JorDano shoots CZ.. He may chime in and have advice for you too..

[flack jacket]

what I needed to master was the first DA shot. My first 20 rounds or so the shot would go low left.

I loaded up a 100 rounds and fired every one of them DA. Working to keep the sights on target, and the trigger press as neutral as possible. I did this slow at first and then was able to do at speed on a draw.

Thanks - I don't have an issue with the first DA shot, I racked off about 20 practice rounds in DA, all in the A head box at 25 yards.

It's the transition to SA that is messing me up, and that I need to learn/practice. Going from 6+ lbs with the trigger forward to 2.4 lbs with the trigger WAY back is my issue. I can see I'm not alone, lots of mentions here, but no suggestions for a training program to help the learning curve.

Barry

Ok, I just mentioned my DA (just missed this post)

I use the exact same finger location on trigger for both DA/SA so the transition is seamless in terms of feel....

[dbarrym]

ok, here goes. I also shot a glock34 coming into this sport and was the only handgun i had really ever shot but decided to step up to a qyality made gun. For some reason CZ kept calling me. Had never help one before and no one around here has one so it was a big step. Once I reeived it the grips made the gun seem skiny and i couldn't get a good hold with my long fingers. I managed to figure out to use al gtip on left side and wooden grip and right (strong side). The gun then began to point exactly where i was drawing to. From 10yds yesterday i was able to draw and hit 8" plates in 1.6sec consistently. Was putting 3 shots on steel popper from draw before it hit the ground. At one time I almost sold that gun but kept dry firing and drawing on timer. I guess i'm saying it won't be easy and you will have to keep the gun in your hand at all times. Practice drawing and pulling trigger back to just before it breaks. You want to be able to prep trigger and fire AS SOON as your sights line up with first target, then it's alpo time. That initial draw and set up on first target is critical. I'll quit rambling now but know it will take hours of drawing and dry firing. good luck. the gun is amazing

Thanks, appreciate the reply.

Do you shoot an SA-only CZ? I have no issues prepping trigger in either mode, just not in sequence...first SA shot (2nd shot in sequence) is premature. I am used to getting off the first shot as soon as I have the front sight on target and prepping the trigger while moving to the next target. I'm getting a "PD" somewhere between the two, since there is such a large difference in trigger characteristics.

FYI, I have small to medium hands (short fingers) and have some home-made thin AL grips on it at the moment. That's not my issue, it's ingraining into muscle memory the significantly different feel between DA and SA that I'm looking for input on.

Barry

[gmg]

the SA reset is ver short after breaking the initial shot but it is definitely there and you can easily feel it...maybe not as pronounced as a glock reset but pretty dang good. the best way i can tell you is to shoot groups, slow groups. pull the trigger thru to fire and hold trigger, then slowly let off 'til youj hear and feel it reset. you will not have to release trigger any further than that. start your live fire practice off everytime shooting groups. lots of different muscles will learn new things you will not realize they are learning. do this slow for awhile and speed up some later.hope this makes sense and helps

[dbarrym]

As additional input, I've shot a DA/SA gun many times (S&W 5906, Beretta 96, etc)...not so much a problem with those guns. The problem seems to be somewhat specific to the CZ, where the trigger break point between DA and SA is very far apart - just measured this on mine, and it's very nearly 1/2".

I've seen the trigger mods by Cajun Gunworks to address this, essentially moving the DA trigger back about 1/4", which would help, but I'd prefer to master the stock trigger (and keep the gun Production legal).

Barry

[ChuckS]

oops...

Edited August 1, 2011 by ChuckS

[JorDanO]

There is a way to practice the transition in dry fire. Pull the DA trigger and hold it all way back, cycle the slide, then pull the SA trigger. Don't worry about taking a sight picture. You can even do this while watching TV or something just so you can get more familiar with the trigger.

[Philo_Beddoe]

to me the long DA first shot is jut part of the draw, everything else is sa

[DWFAN]

Ive had the problem you describe before, came from 1911's and M&P pro where you could ride the reset really close. The slide closing would produce enough movement to break SA shot prematurely.

I believe you can do 2 things to help fix it.

1. Hold the trigger against the frame a little longer before releasing to reset.

2. Let the trigger out a little farther past the reset/SA break point.

Once you get used to it, you'll find you can ride the reset/SA a little closer.

[dbarrym]

There is a way to practice the transition in dry fire. Pull the DA trigger and hold it all way back, cycle the slide, then pull the SA trigger. Don't worry about taking a sight picture. You can even do this while watching TV or something just so you can get more familiar with the trigger.

Hey....this works. Bingo!

I tried racking the slide (without holding the trigger back) and obviously that resets to DA. Not what I would have thought of (i.e. forgetting sight picture), but for what I'm trying to do it will work. Thanks mucho!

Barry

[dbarrym]

Ive had the problem you describe before, came from 1911's and M&P pro where you could ride the reset really close. The slide closing would produce enough movement to break SA shot prematurely.

I believe you can do 2 things to help fix it.

1. Hold the trigger against the frame a little longer before releasing to reset.

2. Let the trigger out a little farther past the reset/SA break point.

Once you get used to it, you'll find you can ride the reset/SA a little closer.

This too. I usually can release a Glock trigger just TO reset (i.e. with no slack), but that was resulting in a PD with the CZ (LOL).

Thanks much, everyone...really appreciate the feedback.

Sweet gun, I am looking forward to becoming competent with it!

Barry

Barry

[gmg]

Ive had the problem you describe before, came from 1911's and M&P pro where you could ride the reset really close. The slide closing would produce enough movement to break SA shot prematurely.

I believe you can do 2 things to help fix it.

1. Hold the trigger against the frame a little longer before releasing to reset.

2. Let the trigger out a little farther past the reset/SA break point.

Once you get used to it, you'll find you can ride the reset/SA a little closer.

This too. I usually can release a Glock trigger just TO reset (i.e. with no slack), but that was resulting in a PD with the CZ (LOL).

Thanks much, everyone...really appreciate the feedback.

Sweet gun, I am looking forward to becoming competent with it!

Barry

Barry

Word of caution.... don't hold trigger back to long against frame in match as some RO might interpret as finger on trigger rule when moving and oops...DQ

[Samuel Adams]

I spent a year shooting a revolver in IDPA. Working the DA trigger helped a great deal when I switched back to shooting a CZ, not only with trigger control but with accuracy and other aspects of the sport.

[latech15]

I guess I just got lucky, but I had absolutely no issue going to my CZ. I thought I was going to, and at times it feels like the draw times are slower, but the clock says differently. My videos show very little if any difference between the 1st and 2nd shots and any subsequent follow up shots.

Disregard the first stage of the video, the first target was a swinger.

[justaute]

latech15 -- Nice shooting.

[DWFAN]

I havent had much trouble either with the DA first shot as long as I really watch that front sight it wont go low... unless its weak hand..

[gmg]

good shootin' latech15. if i may ask and don't mean to hijack thread, but what load are you shooting in yours?

[az_shooter_11]

Barry,

I am C-Class in Production shooting CZ Custom shop, same gun as yours, came from Glock/xDm. I would recommend NOT dry firing your gun over and over in D/A mode. Here's why, it trains you to use a much heavier trigger pull and longer reset and will totally screw up your S/A trigger stroke, at least it did for me. You only have to shoot the D/A trigger at most once per stage and sometimes never depending on the stage.

Shortly after I switched I was shooting a match with two other shooters that had recently switched to the CZ at Rio (one a national champion) and mentioned that I was having trouble with the trigger, they both started laughing and asked me if I had dry fired the D/A trigger a bunch and of I said of course, and they said, "oh yea, you shouldn't have done that" for the reason I described above.

Since limiting my practice with the D/A trigger and concentrating on the S/A trigger I have made major improvements. That is not to say I don't practice the D/A trigger, I do, but just at the range and only as the first shot from the draw for whatever exercise I am doing. Another poster said he thinks of the D/A trigger pull as part of the draw, that makes sense to me, anything to separate it from the S/A trigger pull. Oh and if your gun is new you are really in for a treat after a few thousand rounds

Just my .02 and experience, hope it helps.

Dan

[latech15]

I load 3.7 grains of unique under a 147 gr bayou bullet. Makes 130 pf.

[rvb]

Some things I typed up for someone else somewhat recently:

Are you adjusting your grip, finger placement, or the direction you pull your finger from the DA shot to the SA shot at all? Even the tiniest amount? The DA shot requires extra reach to get started, and it's easy to subconsciously do something different to accomodate and then adjust when the reach gets shorter. You want do not want anything to change between DA and SA.

Factory DA triggers are typically very heavy. If you put the trigger more out on the tip of your finger you loose leverage and will strain more. Against more "conventional" wisdom, if you move the trigger off the pad and more into the knuckle, you gain leverage and the trigger weight seems more manageable. That may require your grip to change.

Pay very close attention to where the sear releases in both DA and SA. Sometimes, the trigger is not at the exact same point between the two modes. I'm not familiar enough with the internals of your gun to know if this is common or not. But if there is a difference then that could mean that at the moment the sear releases you are not pressing the trigger at the same angle at the between the two modes even though you think you are. The solution is to find a grip and trigger finger placement that offers a good compromise.

The bottom line is a DA/SA trigger takes some experimentation. Dryfire the snot out of it till you can do either without disturbing the sights. You goal is to just let the shot break whenever it wants while you hold the sights in place. Do not anticipate the shot breaking.

Mastering a DA trigger will make you a better shooter all around.

Just some thoughts from a guy w/ many years of competitive shooting using a DA/SA pistol.