Blood Lead Levels & Revolvers

[MrBorland]

ok, folks - I'm in a pickle and hoping you can help: In your opinion...nope...scratch that...in your experience, are wheelgunners at increased risk of developing high blood lead levels?

Here's the background: During last year's physical, I happened to mention to my Doc I shoot and reload, so for funzies, he had a blood lead test run. It came back high. Not screaming high, but higher than normal, and high enough to warrant looking for a reduction.

So, right away, I changed a number of things, some of which may seem extreme:

- shoot outdoors only

- clean & tumble brass outdoors

- wear nitrile gloves when reloading &/or cleaning my gun

- wipe my hands down with D-lead wipes between stages

- shower & shampoo as soon as I get home

- Remove & wash any "shooting" clothes as soon as I get home

6 months later, I retest, and not only did the levels not drop, they went up. At this point, Santa brought me an ultrasonic cleaner, and I've stopped using media altogether, on top of what I've been doing (btw, I dig ultrasonically-cleaned brass). Another 6 months goes by, and I recently re-tested - another increase.

So, I'm trying to ID the source of the problem, but I can't help but wonder how much is related to the use of a revolver. I mean, compared to a semi-auto, it - and the hands - get pretty filthy. And the gas escaping from the cylinder gap - is it possible that's a high-pressure source of lead compounds that's particularly bad?

Have any of you had their blood lead levels tested? Normal? High? If high, what, if anything, cleared it up? Plated bullets? Shooting a semi-auto? Both?

Any input would be great.

Tom

[Waltermitty]

I ran Linotypes back in the day (Google it) some of us were more susceptible to lead buildup than others. If you're taking up lead, it has more to do with your personal chemistry than comparable exposure. Quit for 6 months and check again. If you can't eliminate it you'll need another game. Sorry.

[CZinSC]

I had my blood tested for lead a couple of months ago. Precautionary. Like you I mentioned to my doc I shoot and reload, and Dr thought it was a good idea to see what it is and at least get a base line for future tests. Luckily mine were within normal ranges. I also shoot a semi-auto, and have only been shooting for about 2.5 years, so the chances were slim, but I figured better check now. I have been reloading for a little over a year, and use FMJ ( exposed lead base though ). I try to be sensible with cleanliness, but not to the levels you are taking it. Seems like you're doing all the right things.

Have you ruled out another source of the lead? Like maybe your drinking water? I've read where corroded pipes or something of that nature could cause lead in your water and lead to high lead levels. Not sure about that, so if someone knows more, I encourage them to chime in and refute that or confirm it.

Good luck, I hope you figure it out.

[Shadowrider]

I was wondering about different sources too, you seem to be doing everything right. How many rounds do you shoot a month?

A friend of mine's got pretty high. He's a commercial bullet caster. He made some changes by adding vent hoods, changed his diet, takes a bunch of vitamins and an herb or two and started drinking massive quantities of water. He hasn't mentioned it in awhile but his levels were coming down pretty quickly. I really need to get mine checked.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Shadowrider

[Mooney]

Ack. I had a massive response typed and it disappeared.

I had lead poisoning from shooting several matches in a short period of time at a major manufacturer's indoor ranges. It seems that someone had closed the vents due to inclement weather for the first time in about 70 years (according to sources at the plant) and never re-opened them. My levels three weeks after the match were in the 240 range...doc was NOT happy.

Things to mitigate your lead counts (some you have already done):

Shoot indoors on a very limited basis (and wear a respirator if you have to shoot inside)

Wash hands and body well after shooting, touching dirty brass, etc.

DON'T have your lead checked within a week of shooting. One match can raise my levels from 4 to over 40.

Change from open base (or lead) bullets to CMJ or JHP. The closed base design really does a lot to mitigate the foul smoke, which is the fastest way for lead to get into your body.

Wear gloves to reload, moon, de-moon, clean, etc. Any time you're touching a cartridge or portion thereof, wear Nitriles.

Don't eat, smoke, drink, or so much as wipe your brow with leaded hands. That's what rags and towels are made for.

Don't forget primers contain lead too. They are harder to line up with gloves on, but too bad.

Lose your clothes as soon as you get inside (or change at the range if you can). Lose the shoes before you go inside, put them in a shoe-basket or the closet. That way you don't track your lead and all the other people's lead into your home.

The Chelation process sucks. I had to take a pill regimen (based on kg of body weight) of "Chemet". Something like 20 pills three times a day for a couple days, then 15, 10, 5. If you have to pay for your meds yourself, you're better off stopping shooting altogether, at least for a bit. I had to pay $65 for this top-tier medicine, and my insurer picked up the other $2,135.

Chelation strips out all the metal from your body and passes it out the back door. You lose iron, magnesium, etc. as well as the bad things. You have to take some serious doses of the good metals (supplements) and mega-doses of vitamin C. When you lose your metals, your immune system becomes seriously weakened. Since I work as a grocery thrower (I drive a reefer truck of food and deliver to restaurants), I deal with raw food and the assorted nasties that go with it. I was lucky and didn't get sick!

Your body will also try to digest other metals, like rings, watches, bracelets, dog tags, etc... so you don't get to wear any of those either (if you do and/or like to...).

By shooting outdoors only (and indoors something like once a year, max), shooting mostly closed-based bullets (JHPs), using nitrile gloves any time I handle anything ammo related (including dirty guns), washing well, losing the shooting clothes pretty much at the door, and watching how soon after shooting I get checked, I am typically around a "4" on my count now. Since my doc doesn't shoot and he tests out to a "9", I think it's working for me.

[Carmoney]

I've never been tested. But a high lead level would help explain some of my behavioral issues.

[Crabbys44]

Mooney covered all of the hot spots.

The big one is to stop using exposed lead based bullets.

Also, primers have lead in them. I know there was a lead free primer made, I don't know if it still is or not.

DO NOT SMOKE while shooting. You'll suck in a much higher lead dose from your hands, the air, etc.

Do not eat, drink, or chew tobacco until after you have washed your hands with soap and water. This will limit ingesting lead.

It's easier to prevent exposure than "cure" it.

[cuzinvinny]

Tom

Where are you having your lead levels tested? I had my first blood test done at my family doctors office. My lead level (14)was slightly elevated (normal is less than 10). Upon further investigation my family doctor discovered that the tests done in his office may not be 100% reliable. IIRC the glass tube used to collect the blood sample may have contained a small of lead from the glass making process thereby giving a false reading. The doctor suggested that I have the test repeated at the local hospital lab. The repeat test came back with a reading of 9. I believe the hospital lab used a special tube for collecting blood samples for lead testing. A side benefit to using the hospital lab, is the skill level of the hospital lab technicians, they are better at drawing blood since they do it much more frequently than the nurses at the family doctor's office, they find the veins with no problem and leave less bruising.

[pskys2]

I used to shoot indoors a lot and was tested and never had any problems.

Shooting indoors or in an area that retains smoke can hurt you, but most indoor ranges now have good ventilation.

Most likely culprit would be eating, smoking or something like sucking your thumb? during or after handling lead, like reloading, or while in a high lead environment. It's not just the smoke, it's the lead residue that attaches to everything.

What's your work environment? If you smoke anything in your environment ends up in your lungs, some get pretty nasty. Such as the oil in refrigerant systems would turn to an acid when burned, as in a cigarette.

Might think of checking other family members to see if they also have high levels. Just shooting, properly, doesn't lead to it necessarily.

Another reason to wear a cap, your hair actually wicks up what touches it. Handling pesticides where I found out about that.

[Carmoney]

It's easy for people to get a little hysterical on the lead issue. We have had several other threads on that topic elsewhere on BE. Many of the mentioned "hazards" are not really hazards at all. As a general rule, lead is only absorbed when it is ingested. It's generally not going to be absorbed through your skin, and it's certainly not going to wick up through your hair. If you're truly interested in getting real answers to a medical question, this is not the place. Find a real medical information resource.

[MarkCO]

I wrote an articel on this with the assistance of a Doctor several years ago. Feel free to pass it on to your clubs if you want.

http://dfuse.us/lead.html

[MrBorland]

Thanks for all the input, folks.

I generally agree with you, Mike. I'm not giving in to hysteria, but my level is high enough now to be a legit concern, especially since it seems to be consistently rising, despite good precautions being taken. Just to clarify - I wasn't asking for medical advice - I'm pursuing the medical issue with my doc. I only asked other wheelgunners if they felt there might be some revolver-specific source of contamination.

As to some of the questions & comments raised:

1. I'm a relative noob shooter, and even newer reloader & competitor. I only started shooting 6 years ago. I shot a few IDPA matches about 2 years ago, but started competing consistently early 2010. I started reloading late '09, I think.

2. So far this year, I've reloaded about 4k rounds, all cast. I picked up a G17 recently, and put about 1k factory FMJ through it. With some bigger matches coming up, I'll likely shoot about 10k centerfire rounds this (plus roughly an equal number of rimfire) year. BTW, I realize switching to plated bullets would seem like an obvious first step, but given that my 625 USPSA and backup 686 IDPA guns don't shoot plated well (large-ish throats, I think), I thought I'd start with hygiene.

3. No lead exposure at work, that I'm aware of.

4. Aside from the occasional stogie, I don't smoke. If & when I grab a drink or snack at the range, I'm sure to wash my hands beforehand.

5. Wife tested negative for lead, so it's not likely to be in the water, or some miasma in my loading area (in the garage).

6. I was questioning the accuracy of the test (or the testers), especially since all my steps failed to lower the levels one iota, but, again, my wife tested negative, and all my tests came back in the same ballpark (i.e. a steadily rising slope).

7. I understand some may be pre-disposed to high lead when exposed, and I sure hope I'm not one of them, but my doc and I are pursuing that possibility as well.

At this point, it seems wise to switch to plated bullets entirely and continue being diligent. Sure hope I don't have to quite shooting altogether.

Thanks again -

Tom

[Tom E]

I think you have more to gain by switching to NT primers and not shooting .22's (rimfire). My lead levels run high, between 25 and 70 over the last three + years and is proportional to how much I shoot indoors at a range with "bottom edge of spec" ventilation. Inhaling lead vapors is by far the easiest way to run up your lead levels. It doesn't get absorbed rubbing it on your skin and if you'r "eating" it it's poorly absorbed, the vast majority just "goes thru". In adults it seems to be no big deal until your level goes above 100. Children are a different story.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Tom E

[Matt Griffin]

Breathing. Always check what you're breathing. Skin contact and ingestion are never going to pull in crap like your lungs can, simple biology. Your lungs are designed to pull in everything they can, that's why there's two mucous-coated tubes and hairy orifii in front of the pathways. Your gut, on the other hand, isn't actually inside your body. Freaky concept but imagine a doughnut with a pencil suspended in the hole. Is the pencil "inside" the doughnut the same way we think of things "inside" our bodies? Nope and all our bodies actually are (and the bodies of every insect and animal on the planet with a few exceptions) is nothing more than an elongated doughnut. Mouth to anus on the outside, everything else on the inside, bacteria break down food and coat the outside walls with goo, our cells take up nutrients and keep out the bad stuff.

Anyway, biology lesson aside breathing in smoke is by far the most dangerous thing you can do. I was in the 40s for lead due to indoor range USPSA matches and walking downrange before the smoke dispersed. I stopped going but shot even more outdoors, reloading raw lead without gloves, and my level dropped. Get a HEPA filter and if you smell smoke, stop breathing.

Matt

[ScottyD]

I work at an indoor shooting range, reload, and compete. I have to be very vigilant about my lead level. Drinking a lot of water will help you flush your system. Try adding a good multi-vitamin with at least 18mg of iron. An iron deficiency can cause your body to grab hold of the lead. Also, taking 500mg of calcium twice a day has been shown to lower lead levels. I also started wearing a half face respirator and gloves when I reload or clean guns. I now tumble brass using stainless steel media and water. Making these changes cut my lead level by 20 percent in 5 weeks. Good luck to you.

[pskys2]

Until I read MarkCo's Lead Paper (thanks for posting it), I agreed with you Mike, I had actually been thinking on another track and wandered a bit.

But after reading his paper, FWIW I was told the same mechanism that introduced Pesticides into the system thru the groin/genitals and the scalp were similar.

Big wake up though with the tumbler media. I knew it gave me a headache, I'm allergic to so much crap, but it just never seemed to register that it contained lots of lead also. Figure it's a personal hazzard for me, but don't want the wife exposed.

Think I'll move the tumbler outside to the garage, I could use the space anyway.

I once asked a doctor during my annual physical to check my blood for lead. He acted as if I'd asked him to check for the Andorian Shingles.

He did though and all was normal, this was after half a dozen of the guys who I shot with at an indoor range in the '80's had very elevated lead levels.

Probably something we should all be more conscious of, but not stress over.

[JohnRodriguez]

In My experience, no shooting a revo or handloading does not increase your lead levels in your blood. Ive worked in a copper smelter as a electrician since 3/7/97 and have been tested every year since then for lead, cadmium and arsenic exposures. have never had a elevated level.

[Carmoney]

I wrote an articel on this with the assistance of a Doctor several years ago. Feel free to pass it on to your clubs if you want.

http://dfuse.us/lead.html

OK, I don't want to be offensive here, but lead poisoning from carrying .22 cartridges around in your front pocket? Losing a left testicle because of lead that entered through the genitals? Lead entering through "anal tissues"?

That's just crazy talk.

[Carmoney]

Breathing. Always check what you're breathing. Skin contact and ingestion are never going to pull in crap like your lungs can, simple biology. Your lungs are designed to pull in everything they can, that's why there's two mucous-coated tubes and hairy orifii in front of the pathways. Your gut, on the other hand, isn't actually inside your body. Freaky concept but imagine a doughnut with a pencil suspended in the hole. Is the pencil "inside" the doughnut the same way we think of things "inside" our bodies? Nope and all our bodies actually are (and the bodies of every insect and animal on the planet with a few exceptions) is nothing more than an elongated doughnut. Mouth to anus on the outside, everything else on the inside, bacteria break down food and coat the outside walls with goo, our cells take up nutrients and keep out the bad stuff.

Anyway, biology lesson aside breathing in smoke is by far the most dangerous thing you can do. I was in the 40s for lead due to indoor range USPSA matches and walking downrange before the smoke dispersed. I stopped going but shot even more outdoors, reloading raw lead without gloves, and my level dropped. Get a HEPA filter and if you smell smoke, stop breathing.

Matt

I agree with Matt that inhalation of vaporized lead styphnate (from primers) can be a vector of lead exposure--that's why shooters with high lead levels are nearly always people who shoot (or work) at indoor ranges regularly. There is little or no risk presented by shooting outside. Revolver shooters tend to get a lot of junk on their hands--keep your hands away from your face to prevent accidental ingestion of fine particles of lead. That's about it.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Carmoney

[okc icore]

my dad has been reloading lead bullets for over thirty years and has never had any health problems with loading lead bullets wtih bare hands . i agree with mike that while shooting if you get residue on your hands then carry some kind of wet wipe with you to fix this problem. iam also a plumber and have been using lead on a weekly basis for 15yrs and have been tested every year and have no health problems i also know people who dont smoke and have lung cancer

[Brewski]

I wrote an articel on this with the assistance of a Doctor several years ago. Feel free to pass it on to your clubs if you want.

http://dfuse.us/lead.html

OK, I don't want to be offensive here, but lead poisoning from carrying .22 cartridges around in your front pocket? Losing a left testicle because of lead that entered through the genitals? Lead entering through "anal tissues"?

That's just crazy talk.

Crazy? I think not. Here in the North Carolina, Assholes die of acute lead poisoning at a much higher rate than the general population even when controlling for ignorance, blasphemy and low educational attainment.

[Tom E]

Here in the North Carolina, Assholes die of acute lead poisoning at a much higher rate than the general population even when controlling for ignorance, blasphemy and low educational attainment.

"According to the National Center for Environmental Health, there were about 200 deaths from lead poisoning in the United States between 1979 and 1998. Most of the deaths were among males (74%), African Americans (67%), adults over the age of 45 (76%), and Southerners (70%)."

If my math is right that works out to ~10 per year for the entire country.

[M1911]

Tom E, you are talking about chronic lead poisoning. Brewski is talking about acute lead poisoning -- people who have lead injected at high speed, usually over 700 ft-sec.

[Tom E]

Tom E, you are talking about chronic lead poisoning. Brewski is talking about acute lead poisoning -- people who have lead injected at high speed, usually over 700 ft-sec.

It's called acute lead poisining. It's hard to find info on lead level issues in adults. Almost all references are for kids, but that's a big business: http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/lead_exposure/acute.html

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

If you are concerned and want to lower your lead levels, there are several thing I used that my Doc was amazed worked so well.

My lead lead levels were elevated to 36 from shooting indoor Gallery. I had the headaches, sleep problems, and was more irritable than usual. I went for my yearly and had the doc check levels which is how I discovered it. He admitted that most MDs know little about lead poisoning in adults and usually just prescribe chelating (SP?) drugs. I told him I would try it on my own as there are many natural remedies.

I settled on THIS I went from 36 to 12 in six months. I am still a cranky old guy but I feel better. I have recommended this to others and it worked for them also.

A friend advised that the US Shooting team also had a study that showed Bananas helped remove lead also.

Lead does not go away on its own. It is cumulative. The only way it goes away is chelating vitamins or drugs.

Good luck