Skydiver Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 If his hand comes off the gun while the safety is off, he is done. If his hand WAS off the gun and he then put it back on the gun to flick the safety, but this was before the start then I might see a DQ, if he flicks the safety off and removes his hand, definitely a DQ. But if the beeper goes off, he grabs the gun and flicks the safety as he is DRAWING the gun, no DQ, dumb, Yes, DQ No. And I really doubt most of us can see that happen. We have a crap load of things going on here at this point, the shooter is drawing and probably starting to move so you have to be watching him as well as navigating your own way through the COF. Is this a question about a call that was made? I didn't see that. Or is it about a call that the OP is wondering if he should have made? or is it discussion of a hypothetical? Just curious, where in the rule book does it say that if his hand comes off that it is a DQ? You've hit the question right on the head, Spanky. If the claim is that the rule is 10.5.11 is the rule for the DQ, then that would mean that "holstering" is treated as a state rather than as an act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 A Range officer's first and most important duty is safety. If it is un-safe it is a DQ, it is that simple. I'll site the closes rule then it is up to the RM/MD or arbitration board to figure it out. And this DQ is issued for the benefit of the shooter, he is the one that might be riding Air Life and a short flight runs about $10,000.00. This one will work: 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. I didn't give the command to "Cock and not Lock". When it hits the holster make ready is over. Now go to Philiadelphia and find 3 lawyers that will agree on anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If his hand comes off the gun while the safety is off, he is done. If his hand WAS off the gun and he then put it back on the gun to flick the safety, but this was before the start then I might see a DQ, if he flicks the safety off and removes his hand, definitely a DQ. But if the beeper goes off, he grabs the gun and flicks the safety as he is DRAWING the gun, no DQ, dumb, Yes, DQ No. And I really doubt most of us can see that happen. We have a crap load of things going on here at this point, the shooter is drawing and probably starting to move so you have to be watching him as well as navigating your own way through the COF. Is this a question about a call that was made? I didn't see that. Or is it about a call that the OP is wondering if he should have made? or is it discussion of a hypothetical? Just curious, where in the rule book does it say that if his hand comes off that it is a DQ? At that point it would be a loaded gun in the holster with the safety off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 A Range officer's first and most important duty is safety. If it is un-safe it is a DQ, it is that simple. I'll site the closes rule then it is up to the RM/MD or arbitration board to figure it out. And this DQ is issued for the benefit of the shooter, he is the one that might be riding Air Life and a short flight runs about $10,000.00. This one will work: 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. I didn't give the command to "Cock and not Lock". When it hits the holster make ready is over. Now go to Philiadelphia and find 3 lawyers that will agree on anything. So you would say that it would be fair to DQ a competitor under 10.5.1 if they were to "make ready," holster their gun then re-draw it to take another sight picture? Keep in mind I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'd like to get a full grasp on the entirety of the situation and any possible implications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If his hand comes off the gun while the safety is off, he is done. If his hand WAS off the gun and he then put it back on the gun to flick the safety, but this was before the start then I might see a DQ, if he flicks the safety off and removes his hand, definitely a DQ. But if the beeper goes off, he grabs the gun and flicks the safety as he is DRAWING the gun, no DQ, dumb, Yes, DQ No. And I really doubt most of us can see that happen. We have a crap load of things going on here at this point, the shooter is drawing and probably starting to move so you have to be watching him as well as navigating your own way through the COF. Is this a question about a call that was made? I didn't see that. Or is it about a call that the OP is wondering if he should have made? or is it discussion of a hypothetical? Just curious, where in the rule book does it say that if his hand comes off that it is a DQ? At that point it would be a loaded gun in the holster with the safety off. So are you going to use 10.5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Just be ready with the "STOP" command when he blows a hole in his foot. There is no rule which allows you to call a DQ on someone for clicking off the safety on the draw.... As long as they are making a draw, then it's on them. The deal is it would be too hard to call exactly when a safety was disengaged... If we said you have to clear leather/err plastic before or the gun must be downrange etc, it's to arbitrary and can not be called with any accuracy. Thus, this is on the shooter to determine when they disengage a safety. NO DQ For your hypothetical, flipping it off in the holster and removing your hand: Remember the provisions of 8.1 which do NOT allow you to have a single action firearm holstered with hammer back and safety disengaged. In that case you are in violation of 8.1.2.1 so 10.5.3.4 USGH err 8.5.2 JT Edited July 21, 2011 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Rule 8.5.2 States that a holstered handgun MUST be in the appropriate ready condition. Ergo if the shooter has his handgun in the holster and removes his hand from it with the safety off, he is in violation of this rule. Violations subject to 10.5.11 (DQ) It looks for all the world to me that a gun, holstered in an 'un-safed' condition is a violation. Holstering has been previously defined as having removed one's hand from the gun. This was in reference to when is the range clear at the end of a COF, ULSC, ICHD, H, Range is clear, when is the range clear? when the gun is holstered, when is is holstered, when the competitor removes his hand. Until then, if it falls, the COF is still live and the falling gun would be a DQ. The shooter is required to remove his had signifying that he has completed holstering. To me that says a gun is holstered when the shooter is not holding onto it. Put your hand on the gun, flip the safety on/off/on and remove your hand, no foul, dumb, but no DQ. Take your hand off while the safety is off and DQ. My opinion of course, but it makes some bit of sense. (to me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 10.5.3.4 provides that it has to be in the appropriate ready condition in order to be able to legally set the gun on the ground (or other stable object). How does that have anything to do with a gun inside of a holster? Or is a holster considered an "other stable object?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Why do I keep dragging myself into these discussions? 8.5.2 says "holsters." 10.5.11 says "holstering." Both of those, to me, are in reference to the act of placing the gun into the holster. Not its idle state while resting in the holster after being inserted. Seems like more rules that require intimate knowledge of the intent to be able to equitably apply said rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) For your hypothetical, flipping it off in the holster and removing your hand: Remember the provisions of 8.1 which do NOT allow you to have a single action firearm holstered with hammer back and safety disengaged. In that case you are in violation of 8.1.2.1 so 10.5.3.4 USGH Unfortunately 8.1 says nothing about holstered. (The word "holster" doesn't appear until section 8.2.) I learned this because JA wanted it explicitly written in one of my WSB that the start position was "handgun holstered, loaded and ready (per 8.1.1 / 8.1.2)", and not just "handgun loaded and ready (per 8.1.1/8.1.2)" as I'd previously written. I didn't think I needed explicitly say holstered because the rulebook was pretty clear about the various carry and storage options the shooter had (including having the gun on ground), but it would be to the shooters advantage to have it holstered. :-) Edited July 21, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 A Range officer's first and most important duty is safety. If it is un-safe it is a DQ, it is that simple. I'll site the closes rule then it is up to the RM/MD or arbitration board to figure it out. And this DQ is issued for the benefit of the shooter, he is the one that might be riding Air Life and a short flight runs about $10,000.00. This one will work: 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. I didn't give the command to "Cock and not Lock". When it hits the holster make ready is over. Now go to Philiadelphia and find 3 lawyers that will agree on anything. So you would say that it would be fair to DQ a competitor under 10.5.1 if they were to "make ready," holster their gun then re-draw it to take another sight picture? Keep in mind I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'd like to get a full grasp on the entirety of the situation and any possible implications. No that is allowed in USPSA but not IPSC and I personally think we need to go with no loaded sight picture but until we do you may do that within the prescribed distance limit. Next we will have to carry a protactor to make sure if it was just 180 or 181, this is a total judgment call, so if in my judgement it is unsafe your day is done. The whole intent of the rules is to keep it safe for the competitor the spectators and the RO. I'll do some more rule reading and find one that will stick I know its there, some where. At the very least the RO should not start the shooter as he in not in one of the defined ready conditions, or if you can't dig on that one, then when he goes for the hammer issue Standby, followed by the creeping call and remedial action for the cocked hammer. Not happening on my watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) For your hypothetical, flipping it off in the holster and removing your hand: Remember the provisions of 8.1 which do NOT allow you to have a single action firearm holstered with hammer back and safety disengaged. In that case you are in violation of 8.1.2.1 so 10.5.3.4 USGH Unfortunately 8.1 says nothing about holstered. (The word "holster" doesn't appear until section 8.2.) I learned this because JA wanted it explicitly written in one of my WSB that the start position was "handgun holstered, loaded and ready (per 8.1.1 / 8.1.2)", and not just "handgun loaded and ready (per 8.1.1/8.1.2)" as I'd previously written. I didn't think I needed explicitly say holstered because the rulebook was pretty clear about the various carry and storage options the shooter had (including having the gun on ground), but it would be to the shooters advantage to have it holstered. :-) Weather it's holstered or not matters not at all for the purposes of this discussion. The WSB says where the gun is and if it's loaded. It doesn't mater if it's on a table, in a barrel , or wherever. When you make ready this rule applies as to how both an unloaded and loaded firearm is to be set. The reason JA wanted it it that way is to make sure to everyone it was clear WHERE the handgun was at the start of the COF. The WSB calls out how/where the handgun is, but the rules say how the mechanism it to be readied. JT Edited July 21, 2011 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 8.5.2 IF a competitor holsters a LOADED handgun at anytime during a COF, it MUST be placed in teh applicable handgun ready condition. Violations are subject to a match DQ 10.5.11 OK, it does not specifically address a holstered loaded handgun where the safety is not applied after the gun is holstered, however it does state that in order to get the gun into the holster the safety MUST be applied. I don't see where having a holstered gun without the safety applied is legalized here. 10.5.11 spells out the DQ for 8.5.2 Again I see nowhere that having the safety off is allowed. How does one comply with 8.5.2 and then have the safety off? If I see you have the safety off and your hand is off the gun, therefore you have completed the act of holstering I will have to assume that you did one of two things. Holstered without applying the safety, Match DQ or you flipped it off afterwards, I'll go with unsafe gun handling if you won;t grant me 8.5.2 and 10.5.11. Maybe we can clear this up next issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) A Range officer's first and most important duty is safety. If it is un-safe it is a DQ, it is that simple. I'll site the closes rule then it is up to the RM/MD or arbitration board to figure it out. And this DQ is issued for the benefit of the shooter, he is the one that might be riding Air Life and a short flight runs about $10,000.00. This one will work: 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. I didn't give the command to "Cock and not Lock". When it hits the holster make ready is over. Now go to Philiadelphia and find 3 lawyers that will agree on anything. So you would say that it would be fair to DQ a competitor under 10.5.1 if they were to "make ready," holster their gun then re-draw it to take another sight picture? Keep in mind I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'd like to get a full grasp on the entirety of the situation and any possible implications. No that is allowed in USPSA but not IPSC and I personally think we need to go with no loaded sight picture but until we do you may do that within the prescribed distance limit. Next we will have to carry a protactor to make sure if it was just 180 or 181, this is a total judgment call, so if in my judgement it is unsafe your day is done. The whole intent of the rules is to keep it safe for the competitor the spectators and the RO. I'll do some more rule reading and find one that will stick I know its there, some where. At the very least the RO should not start the shooter as he in not in one of the defined ready conditions, or if you can't dig on that one, then when he goes for the hammer issue Standby, followed by the creeping call and remedial action for the cocked hammer. Not happening on my watch. Ron, I think the point that is being made here is in response to this "When it hits the holster make ready is over". The shooter is under the "Make Ready" command until he assumes the start position and fails to give any negative response to the command of "Are You Ready". Between those two point the shooter can unholster and reholster as they wish. Edited July 21, 2011 by Scott R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT45 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If his hand comes off the gun while the safety is off, he is done. If his hand WAS off the gun and he then put it back on the gun to flick the safety, but this was before the start then I might see a DQ, if he flicks the safety off and removes his hand, definitely a DQ. But if the beeper goes off, he grabs the gun and flicks the safety as he is DRAWING the gun, no DQ, dumb, Yes, DQ No. And I really doubt most of us can see that happen. We have a crap load of things going on here at this point, the shooter is drawing and probably starting to move so you have to be watching him as well as navigating your own way through the COF. Is this a question about a call that was made? I didn't see that. Or is it about a call that the OP is wondering if he should have made? or is it discussion of a hypothetical? Just curious, where in the rule book does it say that if his hand comes off that it is a DQ? I've always thought that if a pistol is holstered, it was considered inert, and according to 10.5.11.1 the safety better be applied... but if your hand is gripping the pistol, you have taken control of the pistol and at that point you become responsible for safe gun handling. I'd say no DQ to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... I always think of 10.5 as a BS rule to apply. (We don't have a FTDR. A DQ ought to be specifically covered.) However...this might the first place I'd think about applying this rule. (Which, to me, means we might need to reword the rules.) Is there any reason we need to be manipulating the fire control parts while in the holster...at all? Loaded or not? I can see the Practicality (one handed) of working mag changes in the holster (even though we don't do much of that in our game). It wouldn't be my first choice. I'd hate to have to cite 10.5. I'd hate to have to cite it as the primary rule -- but not all things can be foreseen by ruleswriters, so I think it's a good idea to have the rule in there. As far as citing it second goes -- I'd want to give an arbitration committee the opportunity to consider it, if they decided to apply 10.5.11 very narrowly.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... So you would issue a subjective DQ in spite of what seems (to me) to be in obvious opposition of the wording of the applicable rule? The rules says "holstering..." not "having a holstered..." Is there a reason for such wording? I'm not certain but I imagine there is. Speaking of subjectivity, I have to imagine there's a reason for the wording following 10.5 as well: 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun HandlingExamples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: (Emphasis mine.)Virtually all of the holsters we use in the game retain the gun (at least partially) by the trigger guard. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that sweeping the safety off in the holster and then drawing is Safe Gunhandling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 No problem for me -- DQ under 10.5.11 if I see it that way in the holster. I'd also cite 10.5, just in case...... Nik, We will have to disagree on this. IF the gun is Loaded & holstered AND the shooters hand is off, as it would be following LAMR or if he reholstered during the COF, you are correct, BUT if the shooter grabs his gun as he draws and flicks the safety off as he draws, then I can't see a DQ. I can see a discussion after the COF that he might want to wait a split second longer to flick the safety, but no DQ. Now you MIGHT argue that this is an example of USGH, but I can also argue that I really doubt that anyone can even see this as it occurs. Maybe on a shooter that has a 2 second draw, but on a shooter that is in the sub one-second? not likely. Realistically the only time that I might see it, is if the gun is holstered. During the draw -- I don't think I can see it. I once thought I heard a competitor clicking the safety on and off, when I checked the shooters gun, the safety was on. After the stage I asked him about it, he denied it, and asked why I asked -- we had a conversation. To this day I don't know for certain, and the shooter wasn't disqualified. If he was clicking the safety on and off, I hope the conversation had an influence.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 If his hand comes off the gun while the safety is off, he is done. If his hand WAS off the gun and he then put it back on the gun to flick the safety, but this was before the start then I might see a DQ, if he flicks the safety off and removes his hand, definitely a DQ. But if the beeper goes off, he grabs the gun and flicks the safety as he is DRAWING the gun, no DQ, dumb, Yes, DQ No. And I really doubt most of us can see that happen. We have a crap load of things going on here at this point, the shooter is drawing and probably starting to move so you have to be watching him as well as navigating your own way through the COF. Is this a question about a call that was made? I didn't see that. Or is it about a call that the OP is wondering if he should have made? or is it discussion of a hypothetical? Just curious, where in the rule book does it say that if his hand comes off that it is a DQ? When is holstering finished? NROI teaches that it's when the hand comes off the gun, in terms of unloading at the end of a stage. That interpretation's good enough for me. If I see a competitor flicking the safety on and off in the holster, I'll make the call under 10.5.11 and 10.5.... The people who run the matches -- from the MD, down to the RO, to the stage designers and builders -- are my friends. They're also the people who will be sued in the event of an accident. I believe that as competitors we have a moral obligation to protect them. As shooters we need to be safe in all our actions. As ROs we need to call unsafe gun handling when we see it. Everyone we play with deserves no less. Believe me I take no pleasure from disqualifying any competitor. I regret that it necessary; that however can not sway me in my obligation to everyone else on the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 That's a tough call. If I see someone go "off-safe" while holstered, it's going to get my full and undivided attention. As a general rule......you don't want my full and divided attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 As I said earlier, there is a tactical/practical side of this to consider , being legal, for instance)I will re-state...if we do see this rule get clarified... I see no reason for anybody to need to manipulate the fire control parts (safety, hammer, etc.) while the gun is in the holster... loaded or not. Anybody else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofe954 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 So a 2lb trigger glock/M&P/XD with no safety available is perfectly safe in the holster but a 1911 with a 2lb trigger and the safety off in a holster is a DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 So a 2lb trigger glock/M&P/XD with no safety available is perfectly safe in the holster but a 1911 with a 2lb trigger and the safety off in a holster is a DQ? I was wondering the same thing. setting aside the rule book, and everybody saying how unsafe it is to not have the thumb safty engaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 So a 2lb trigger glock/M&P/XD with no safety available is perfectly safe in the holster but a 1911 with a 2lb trigger and the safety off in a holster is a DQ? I was wondering the same thing. setting aside the rule book, and everybody saying how unsafe it is to not have the thumb safty engaged. Both of these pistols still have safeties engaged. The 1911 would not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 half cock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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