Philo_Beddoe Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I shoot a CZ Shadow in the USPSA production division, I recently did this classifier: http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/99-46.pdf On string 3 it says: String 3. Upon start signal, transfer gun to weak hand and from Box C engage T1-T3 with only two rounds per target using weak hand only The D/A pull on my shadow is rougly 8 lbs and I stuggle getting an accurate first shot off with that heavy pull from weak hand only, S/A shots are no problem. Is it legal to just cock the hammer with your thumb for the first shot in the production divison? I could not find any rules that forbid it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Yes, that is legal as long as you are starting in DA mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Legal to hand cock in USPSA. Procedural penalty in IPSC (Appendix D4.17). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) You can also try to find some video of some open shooters' technique of drawing a gun by holding on to the red dot sight or tube in preparation to transfer to the weak hand. You can probably train yourself to do something similar to grab the slide and frame, and cock the hammer with the strong hand thumb while or slightly before the transfer to weak hand. Here's one video: http://www.powerfactorshow.com/2011/03/27/episode-16-stance-strong-weak-hand/ See about 16 minutes in... Edited July 21, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonovanM Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) I put my strong hand on the gun in the holster with my thumb resting naturally on the hammer, and the rest of my hand falling where it does on the grip. I cock the hammer and draw (in sort of one motion), then transfer to weak hand. Works great and is a little bit faster than running the DA trigger with my weak hand. I'll have to remember not to do that if I ever shoot IPSC. What a stupid and pointless penalty. Edited July 21, 2011 by DonovanM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I put my strong hand on the gun in the holster with my thumb resting naturally on the hammer, and the rest of my hand falling where it does on the grip. I cock the hammer, then draw and transfer to weak hand. Works great, but really it's just as fast as if I just run the DA trigger with my weak hand. I'll have to remember not to do that if I ever shoot IPSC. What a stupid and pointless penalty. I do not recommend cocking while the gun is holstered. People have been DQ'd for flipping the safety on and off while their gun is cocked and locked while holstered after make ready. (10.5.11) I've heard the argument that it should not be a DQ because they were not "holstering" but rather the gun is already "holstered", but I've not heard if the argument has actually made it to an arbitration committee and what their response was. I would imagine that cocking a holstered gun would also fall under 10.5.11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If I am going to thumb it I just do so as I am pulling my hand away from the gun after the transfer to the weak hand. Actually a lot easier than it sounds and that way I am assured that if the hammer slips off my thumb during the process I won't be known as "Nine Toe Rick" afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonovanM Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Interesting. I'm taking the RO class here in a couple weeks, and Troy McManus is teaching it. I'll be sure to ask him. I lift up on the hammer and the gun at the same time, I suppose I could just practice to do it right before the transfer. Or just man up and do it normally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangucci Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 A double action trigger pull is pretty easy to dry fire practice. Just get a snap cap and practice a smooth pull with your weak hand. Cocking the hammer seems like it could be easily missed and then you still have to do a double action pull with the weak hand anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I won't be known as "Nine Toe Rick" afterwards. Frikkin' HILARIOUS! And a good point as well I might add. I would never consider cocking a hammer on the draw for at least 10 reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpenDot Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Legal to hand cock in USPSA. Procedural penalty in IPSC (Appendix D4.17). D4.17 is about the slide... I was under the impression that if you have a DA/SA firearm you cannot cock the hammer after the draw... that the trigger has to be pulled from factory mode (hammer down - that's why it's DA/SA) but in the rulebook it states this... Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. And that's all it says... So I would say yes, after the start signal and the draw you can cock the hammer back.. (but it's still faster to just pull the trigger) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okc icore Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 i would practice the da pull i think it would to much time to thumbcock the hammer there are to many things that could go wrong with the transfer like one guy said get snap caps and practice pulling the trigger straight back and smooth ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Legal to hand cock in USPSA. Procedural penalty in IPSC (Appendix D4.17). D4.17 is about the slide... I was under the impression that if you have a DA/SA firearm you cannot cock the hammer after the draw... that the trigger has to be pulled from factory mode (hammer down - that's why it's DA/SA) but in the rulebook it states this... Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. And that's all it says... So I would say yes, after the start signal and the draw you can cock the hammer back.. (but it's still faster to just pull the trigger) from the IPSC rule book D4: 17. Handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are prohibited.Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 When drawing to transfer to weak hand, I draw with my strong hand (rt) thumb on top of the rear sight. This way the transition to the left hand is clear. A traditional grip leaves your thumb in the way. Drawing a double action gun to transfer, this would work very well, as you could cock the hammer with your strong side thumb as you transitioned hands, as the post above suggested. jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philo_Beddoe Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) When drawing to transfer to weak hand, I draw with my strong hand (rt) thumb on top of the rear sight. This way the transition to the left hand is clear. A traditional grip leaves your thumb in the way. Drawing a double action gun to transfer, this would work very well, as you could cock the hammer with your strong side thumb as you transitioned hands, as the post above suggested. jeff That is bascially what I have been doing, some dry fire drills show this to be faster then pulling a 8-9lb long DA weak hand first shot. Draw and cock hammer with strong hand, transfer to weak, just make sure the finger stay out of guard. How many of you advocating a long 8-9lb DA first shot with the weak hand actually run a prod gun that has a long 8-9lb DA first shot? Freestyle and with strong hand only it does not bother me a bit. Edited July 28, 2011 by Philo_Beddoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpenDot Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Legal to hand cock in USPSA. Procedural penalty in IPSC (Appendix D4.17). D4.17 is about the slide... I was under the impression that if you have a DA/SA firearm you cannot cock the hammer after the draw... that the trigger has to be pulled from factory mode (hammer down - that's why it's DA/SA) but in the rulebook it states this... Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. And that's all it says... So I would say yes, after the start signal and the draw you can cock the hammer back.. (but it's still faster to just pull the trigger) from the IPSC rule book D4: 17. Handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are prohibited.Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action. Thanks!! Question though... in the OP he stated USPSA, so that's where I looked 2008 USPSA D4.17 . 17 Slide ports permitted Yes, on factory-original approved models Are the rules from IPSC and USPSA exactly the same or are there different rule books? Sorry, i'm still a noob and honestly don't know, because people are quoting IPSC rule quotes and USPSA rules seem to be different or in a different book or section i'm missing Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpenDot Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Nevermind.. I just downloaded the IPSC rulebook. Quit quoting IPSC rules in a USPSA thread where the OP stated it was USPSA... YOU GUYS ARE THROWING NOOBS LIKE ME OFF TRACK!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Nevermind.. I just downloaded the IPSC rulebook. Quit quoting IPSC rules in a USPSA thread where the OP stated it was USPSA... YOU GUYS ARE THROWING NOOBS LIKE ME OFF TRACK!!! Sorry about that. I should must have been clear about which rulebook I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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