Engaging Targets from under a wall – What is the proper call

[GrumpyOne]

I'm still wondering about the steel target scenario, where the stage can neither be scored nor a penalty assessed.

Ref...reshoot

[Sarge]

I

Every time I see the purple hippo I totally lose it.

[JThompson]

"Shoot the hostage."

JT

Edited July 14, 2011 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

For that analogy to line up with the scenario here, there would have to be a "beer can tall hole" in one side of the cooler....

Nope, because in the given instance, there was no way to shoot the target from the position the OP specified.

Huh? Then how do you explain the missing 2 feet of wall surface and the bullet holes in the target.....

Nik, I think you are playing for sure now, because I know you know that the rulebook says that wall extend to the ground even if the physical wall doesn't unless specified and the OP said there was not an exception on this stage.

The bullet holes don't exist per the rule book, because they hit the part of the wall that extends to the ground per the rulebook and is impenetrable.

Yes, I am playing with you on the beer cooler thing -- though the cooler would need the opening for the analogy to work, i.e. you can see the beer, you can even remove the beer through the opening, but the rules specify the opening does not exist, and you must open the cooler's lid to access the beer.... :D

[Nik Habicht]

The bullet holes don't exist per the rule book, because they hit the part of the wall that extends to the ground per the rulebook and is impenetrable.

Nope -- the bullet holes exist. They are scored as misses per 9.1.6.1 -- a subsection Chapter 9: Scoring

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

If the bullet holes didn't exist, the rule book wouldn't need to tell us they don't count.....

And -- here's the fun part: Show me the full diameter hit in the prop, wall, barrier, vision screen, or other obstacle that lets you remove the hit..... :P

Bad stage design, bad! :devil:

[Mark R]

REF - Re-shoot...

and the beer doesn't exist on the range...it was imaginary too just like the wall. Why shoot it...wait til the match is over and chug a pint or two.

[OpenDot]

All in favor of 2 mikes, 1 FTE say "I".

"I"

Sinse my little education lesson on open invisible barriers that are ruled as walls and not freestyle because of the rules and not being in the WSB...

"I"

He didn't engage the target from the proper shooting position (even if there were 2 holes in it...because he broke the rules, that's why the holes are there.)

So he also get's 2 Mikes because of the engagement from the proper position during the course of fire.

If he would have continued the COF and properly shooting the arget from the correct position, there would be 4 holes in the target and no penalties. (other than on himself for wasting time and ammo)

....IMHO

[mactiger]

Read post number 177... I think that I am going to take this as a lesson learned and go with what Troy posted. 2 mikes and 1 FTE.

I don't see where I posted anything to give you that idea. The blue text is from the OP's original statement; I didn't write that.

I respect your opinion, although I have yet to express mine here. I'm merely asking questions and trying to get you guys to think about it and actually read the rules. I think it's important that we don't make calls based on what we think the rule book says, or think it should say, or whether we think it's right or not. It's important to read the rule and apply it or them as written.

I'm still seeing about a 50/50 split on this call. Some supported rather elegantly by rule, some just more or less: here it is, take it or leave it.

Carry on.

Troy

[Joe4d]

I say, No FTE, simply because there is nothing in the rule book that says failing to engage anything is a penalty.

[GrumpyOne]

The bullet holes don't exist per the rule book, because they hit the part of the wall that extends to the ground per the rulebook and is impenetrable.

Nope -- the bullet holes exist. They are scored as misses per 9.1.6.1 -- a subsection Chapter 9: Scoring

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

If the bullet holes didn't exist, the rule book wouldn't need to tell us they don't count.....

And -- here's the fun part: Show me the full diameter hit in the prop, wall, barrier, vision screen, or other obstacle that lets you remove the hit..... :P

Bad stage design, bad! :devil:

Nil, they can't be scored as misses..... You pointed that out in 9.1.6.1....."will not count for score....." A miss is a score. They don't exist. The only way its a miss is if he doesn't put 2 more rounds on it from a legitimate position, before the end of his course of fire. By definition, a miss means there are no holes in the target, and since those bullets stopped at that impenetrable wall, there are no holes in the target.

[mactiger]

Look at it like this... How far can you miss a target by before its an FTE? 2 feet? 3 feet? If the target in question was 20 feet behind the hardcover, the shooter missed said target by 20 feet, as the bullets did not go through the hardcover. Or like this... Wide open target, shooter puts 2 rounds down range, 20 feet to the right of the target, into the been. Did he engage that target? FTE.

Actually, in your example, no FTE, because he did fire rounds at that target. He shot at it, therefore he engaged it. He just missed by a mile.

Troy

[GrumpyOne]

The bullet holes don't exist per the rule book, because they hit the part of the wall that extends to the ground per the rulebook and is impenetrable.

Nope -- the bullet holes exist. They are scored as misses per 9.1.6.1 -- a subsection Chapter 9: Scoring

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

If the bullet holes didn't exist, the rule book wouldn't need to tell us they don't count.....

And -- here's the fun part: Show me the full diameter hit in the prop, wall, barrier, vision screen, or other obstacle that lets you remove the hit..... :P

Bad stage design, bad! :devil:

Nik, they can't be scored as misses..... You pointed that out in 9.1.6.1....."will not count for score....." A miss is a score. They don't exist. The only way its a miss is if he doesn't put 2 more rounds on it from a legitimate position, before the end of his course of fire. By definition, a miss means there are no holes in the target, and since those bullets stopped at that impenetrable wall, there are no holes in the target.

[mactiger]

The bullet holes don't exist per the rule book, because they hit the part of the wall that extends to the ground per the rulebook and is impenetrable.

Nope -- the bullet holes exist. They are scored as misses per 9.1.6.1 -- a subsection Chapter 9: Scoring

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

If the bullet holes didn't exist, the rule book wouldn't need to tell us they don't count.....

And -- here's the fun part: Show me the full diameter hit in the prop, wall, barrier, vision screen, or other obstacle that lets you remove the hit..... :P

Bad stage design, bad! :devil:

Nil, they can't be scored as misses..... You pointed that out in 9.1.6.1....."will not count for score....." A miss is a score. They don't exist. The only way its a miss is if he doesn't put 2 more rounds on it from a legitimate position, before the end of his course of fire. By definition, a miss means there are no holes in the target, and since those bullets stopped at that impenetrable wall, there are no holes in the target.

Uh, wait, what? Huh?

Troy

[GrumpyOne]

Look at it like this... How far can you miss a target by before its an FTE? 2 feet? 3 feet? If the target in question was 20 feet behind the hardcover, the shooter missed said target by 20 feet, as the bullets did not go through the hardcover. Or like this... Wide open target, shooter puts 2 rounds down range, 20 feet to the right of the target, into the been. Did he engage that target? FTE.

Actually, in your example, no FTE, because he did fire rounds at that target. He shot at it, therefore he engaged it. He just missed by a mile.

Troy

So you are saying I can face 179 degrees away from the target and fire rounds and not get an FTE? Exactly how far away does a shot have to be then? Some bays are only 20 feet wide....put a target in one back corner and shoot in the other and I've engaged that target? I'm dumb, but even I know that's not engaging the target.....

[GrumpyOne]

The bullet holes don't exist per the rule book, because they hit the part of the wall that extends to the ground per the rulebook and is impenetrable.

Nope -- the bullet holes exist. They are scored as misses per 9.1.6.1 -- a subsection Chapter 9: Scoring

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

If the bullet holes didn't exist, the rule book wouldn't need to tell us they don't count.....

And -- here's the fun part: Show me the full diameter hit in the prop, wall, barrier, vision screen, or other obstacle that lets you remove the hit..... :P

Bad stage design, bad! :devil:

Nil, they can't be scored as misses..... You pointed that out in 9.1.6.1....."will not count for score....." A miss is a score. They don't exist. The only way its a miss is if he doesn't put 2 more rounds on it from a legitimate position, before the end of his course of fire. By definition, a miss means there are no holes in the target, and since those bullets stopped at that impenetrable wall, there are no holes in the target.

Uh, wait, what? Huh?

Troy

Even a negative score is a score......book says no score....it's only a miss if he doesn't put 2 more holes in it....9.1.6.1.......at the time he shot the wall, while trying to hit the target, the shots he fired don't count.....shots on hardcover count for neither score nor penalty, so at that time, they are not misses, as he had not completed his course of fire. Once he completed his course of fire, and did not engage that target from a legitimate firing location, then the target itself would be 2 misses. The holes that were in it from his previous attempt to engage it mean nothing.....they are not there, for all intents and purposes.

[OpenDot]

The bullet holes don't exist per the rule book, because they hit the part of the wall that extends to the ground per the rulebook and is impenetrable.

Nope -- the bullet holes exist. They are scored as misses per 9.1.6.1 -- a subsection Chapter 9: Scoring

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.4.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

If the bullet holes didn't exist, the rule book wouldn't need to tell us they don't count.....

And -- here's the fun part: Show me the full diameter hit in the prop, wall, barrier, vision screen, or other obstacle that lets you remove the hit..... :P

Bad stage design, bad! :devil:

Nil, they can't be scored as misses..... You pointed that out in 9.1.6.1....."will not count for score....." A miss is a score. They don't exist. The only way its a miss is if he doesn't put 2 more rounds on it from a legitimate position, before the end of his course of fire. By definition, a miss means there are no holes in the target, and since those bullets stopped at that impenetrable wall, there are no holes in the target.

Uh, wait, what? Huh?

Troy

Even a negative score is a score......book says no score....it's only a miss if he doesn't put 2 more holes in it....9.1.6.1.......at the time he shot the wall, while trying to hit the target, the shots he fired don't count.....shots on hardcover count for neither score nor penalty, so at that time, they are not misses, as he had not completed his course of fire. Once he completed his course of fire, and did not engage that target from a legitimate firing location, then the target itself would be 2 misses. The holes that were in it from his previous attempt to engage it mean nothing.....they are not there, for all intents and purposes.

BINGO!!!!

[bluenite]

Grasping at straws:

No FTE Rule 9.1.6.1 shows engagement

[mactiger]

OK. I'll answer both of Grumpy's questions here.

First, from reading your post, my assumption was that the competitor missed while shooting at the target (attempting to hit it). If you are postulating a deliberate act of dumping two rounds into the berm, as far away from the target as possible, then yes it is an FTE. However, that's not germane to the current conversation. The competitor in question shot at the target below the wall, attempting to hit it.

Following up on that, the two hits on the target don't count, because the wall is considered hard cover and therefore impenetrable to a full bullet diameter. Those will be scored as misses. It's not a "non score", it's a miss, unless the competitor hits them from some other position where he's not shooting through hard cover. I already specified the target was missed, and can be scored as such. Twisting the wording of the rules around doesn't serve our purpose here, either. "Will not count for penalty or score" means that they are misses.

Troy

[GrumpyOne]

But did he engage the target, if the bullets never got there? Hardcover is impenetrable...... If he had missed in his attempt when shooting through the wall, and the target was pristine, (they still would have hit the hardcover and as such would have stopped anyway), would you still say he engaged that target, even when you have no idea where the actual shots went? Do you know that the shooter wasn't intentionally dumping rounds? Only the shooter knows that......

Edited July 14, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[bluenite]

There seems to be no disagreement that he shot at it, be it from behind hard cover.

9.5.7 says nothing about the bullet needing to get to the target.

[Loves2Shoot]

People are actually arguing that you can shoot at China through the core of the earth, because China is on the other side?

It wasn't a fixed time course and it wasn't a disappearing target, and since the wall by rule goes to the ground, it isn't possible to shoot at the target from the position the shooter shot at the wall.

OK, I'll call it FTDR

[GrumpyOne]

There seems to be no disagreement that he shot at it, be it from behind hard cover.

9.5.7 says nothing about the bullet needing to get to the target.

Correct, it doesn't, but it does say "at the face of the target". How can you shoot at the face of a target if it's behind hardcover? Since those shots, by the rules, stopped at the hardcover, how can you decide that he was shooting at the face of the target? Face meaning front. Could have been blind luck he hit it at all......

[bayoupirate]

If you take anything away from all of this, please let it be "this could have been prevented with a pre-match walk through".

If a small group of 3 or 4 experienced shooters would have walked the stages, chances are one of them would have seen the target visible from that position and suggested adding some simple barrier to fix the situation.

and

2 Mikes + 1 FTE

[Loves2Shoot]

On a serious note, many clubs don't have a lot of walls and I've shot I dare say hundreds if not more stages with mesh or snow fences walls with and without ports that had 4'x 8' panels 2'-3' off the ground, so I really don't get the "poor course design" since the rule book clearly states you can't shoot under walls unless they say you can. Why would they state in the rule book that the walls go to the ground?

Was it a poor design, I don't know, as I don't know if they have better walls to use. I've been to many a match you could drop and shoot under almost all the walls, but the rule book says you can't so I've never seen anyone try to.

Here is a clip illustrating a stage with such walls

[bluenite]

One of the clubs I shoot/RO at has no wood, it is all snow mesh fence so I really want to know the proper call in case this ever happens.

Edited July 14, 2011 by bluenite