Dan Hefta Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is crazy. It has nothing to do with any "gotcha business" or "looking for ways to DQ people". It is all about safety. There is NO WAY you can convince me it is a safe thing to do to try to catch a falling firearm with the trigger exposed. No way. I know this is going to piss some of you off but catching an unloaded gun is no more dangerous than catching a ball, yes it's against the rules and it's not a great idea but come on. This statement is with all due respect to all of you, so don't get a linch mob after me. There is no such thing as an "unloaded gun". Ok, I understand your point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I know this is going to piss some of you off but catching an unloaded gun is no more dangerous than catching a ball... Well...catching a ball with your feet is safe, but with your hands ???!!!??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is crazy. It has nothing to do with any "gotcha business" or "looking for ways to DQ people". It is all about safety. There is NO WAY you can convince me it is a safe thing to do to try to catch a falling firearm with the trigger exposed. No way. I know this is going to piss some of you off but catching an unloaded gun is no more dangerous than catching a ball, yes it's against the rules and it's not a great idea but come on. This statement is with all due respect to all of you, so don't get a linch mob after me. By that logic, it's no more dangerous to point an unloaded handgun at your head and pull the trigger than it is to do the same with a stick. Firearms safety rules have numerous redundancies built into them. Violate one, you'll probably be okay...probably. Violate more than one and tragedy will probably occur. USPSA has the terrific safety record it does because of those numerous redundancies. Removing one for no apparent reason is not something I agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is crazy. It has nothing to do with any "gotcha business" or "looking for ways to DQ people". It is all about safety. There is NO WAY you can convince me it is a safe thing to do to try to catch a falling firearm with the trigger exposed. No way. I know this is going to piss some of you off but catching an unloaded gun is no more dangerous than catching a ball, yes it's against the rules and it's not a great idea but come on. This statement is with all due respect to all of you, so don't get a linch mob after me. By that logic, it's no more dangerous to point an unloaded handgun at your head and pull the trigger than it is to do the same with a stick. Firearms safety rules have numerous redundancies built into them. Violate one, you'll probably be okay...probably. Violate more than one and tragedy will probably occur. USPSA has the terrific safety record it does because of those numerous redundancies. Removing one for no apparent reason is not something I agree with. I understand that fella's... we all dryfire in our homes with unloaded guns... the reason our sport has such a great safety record is us, not the rules (rules can be bent or cheated) it's us and us being responsible with our firearms. We as responsible shooters know when our guns are unloaded and when they are loaded, we're not kids playing in Dad's bedroom... that's all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is crazy. It has nothing to do with any "gotcha business" or "looking for ways to DQ people". It is all about safety. There is NO WAY you can convince me it is a safe thing to do to try to catch a falling firearm with the trigger exposed. No way. I know this is going to piss some of you off but catching an unloaded gun is no more dangerous than catching a ball, yes it's against the rules and it's not a great idea but come on. This statement is with all due respect to all of you, so don't get a linch mob after me. By that logic, it's no more dangerous to point an unloaded handgun at your head and pull the trigger than it is to do the same with a stick. Firearms safety rules have numerous redundancies built into them. Violate one, you'll probably be okay...probably. Violate more than one and tragedy will probably occur. USPSA has the terrific safety record it does because of those numerous redundancies. Removing one for no apparent reason is not something I agree with. I understand that fella's... we all dryfire in our homes with unloaded guns... the reason our sport has such a great safety record is us, not the rules (rules can be bent or cheated) it's us and us being responsible with our firearms. We as responsible shooters know when our guns are unloaded and when they are loaded, we're not kids playing in Dad's bedroom... that's all I'm saying. So, you would be OK with me pointing my "unloaded gun" at you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Pointing a gun at something you are not willing to destroy does violate one of the basic tenets of gun safety. No question. But, when you dry fire at home, what do you aim at? You all have a backstop in the yard, right? No? Let's not get off track here. We are talking about a USPSA safety rule here, and one which has nothing to do with pointing a gun at someone. We have rules for that. Of course, you have to be willing to follow the rule, or it's not worth the paper it's printed on. That pretty much goes for all things in life, right? We are discussing trapping a dropped gun outside the COF, not holding one in your hand or even touching it with your hand, and surely not pointing it at someone. Basically we are discussing a modification to an existent rule that is solely USPSA's, and is relevant to the game we play. If you can stay on point, how is trapping any better or worse than letting it hit the ground, given the fact that the competitor doesn't put a hand on it, and that the gun is retrieved and subsequently cleared by a range official? We have numerous rules concerning cold ranges, loaded guns, gun handling, etc., all designed with gun safety in mind. The assumption outside the cof is that the gun is not loaded, yet we confirm that prior to allowing the person to continue. Trapping, IMO, is no more unsafe than actually dropping the gun in the first place, as long as it's retrieved by a range official and proves to be unloaded. We don't DQ for the dropped gun, outside the COF, why DQ for trapping it? Troy Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 All kinds of things can happen when a person traps a falling gun. The trigger can get pressed by clothing from the side for one. You have to first accept the premise that all guns are loaded. If you knew the gun was loaded, would your opinion change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 All kinds of things can happen when a person traps a falling gun. The trigger can get pressed by clothing from the side for one. You have to first accept the premise that all guns are loaded. If you knew the gun was loaded, would your opinion change? All guns are loaded, all the time...I'd rather have a scratched gun than a shot person (or a shot self!) on my concience.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) Pointing a gun at something you are not willing to destroy does violate one of the basic tenets of gun safety. No question. But, when you dry fire at home, what do you aim at? You all have a backstop in the yard, right? No? Let's not get off track here. We are talking about a USPSA safety rule here, and one which has nothing to do with pointing a gun at someone. We have rules for that. Of course, you have to be willing to follow the rule, or it's not worth the paper it's printed on. That pretty much goes for all things in life, right? We are discussing trapping a dropped gun outside the COF, not holding one in your hand or even touching it with your hand, and surely not pointing it at someone. Basically we are discussing a modification to an existent rule that is solely USPSA's, and is relevant to the game we play. If you can stay on point, how is trapping any better or worse than letting it hit the ground, given the fact that the competitor doesn't put a hand on it, and that the gun is retrieved and subsequently cleared by a range official? We have numerous rules concerning cold ranges, loaded guns, gun handling, etc., all designed with gun safety in mind. The assumption outside the cof is that the gun is not loaded, yet we confirm that prior to allowing the person to continue. Trapping, IMO, is no more unsafe than actually dropping the gun in the first place, as long as it's retrieved by a range official and proves to be unloaded. We don't DQ for the dropped gun, outside the COF, why DQ for trapping it? Troy Troy I would think that there is more of a chance of a firearm going off by someone trapping it rather than it hitting the ground. Aren't Glocks known for their drop tests? Yet, trying to grab a falling gun, I can see where you very easily could operate the trigger, or in the case of a 1911/2011 (if it were cocked and locked, which it isn't supposed to be!), operate the safety to the off position while trying to grab at it, miss the gun, have it hit the ground, and BANG! (if it were loaded, which it is, until proven it is not). My .02.... Edit to add: Not to mention the fact that in the process of trying to trap it, catch it, whatever, you might find yourself looking down the barrel of your own gun.... Edited July 16, 2011 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 All kinds of things can happen when a person traps a falling gun. The trigger can get pressed by clothing from the side for one. You have to first accept the premise that all guns are loaded. If you knew the gun was loaded, would your opinion change? All kinds of things can happen too when a gun is dropped..... Considering how many of us work on our own guns, and load our own ammo -- that's not part of the risk/benefit assessment I'm willing to accept "as always being the better choice." Then again, I spend every working day speaking about various risk/benefit scenarios -- so I might be more comfortable operating in a world where there are no absolutes, or easy black/white answers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 We might be losing our belt and suspenders here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 At the risk of someone losing his pants..... All the reasons mentioned as to why a trapped gun should be a DQ also apply to a dropped gun off the COF. If the resistance to this is because the gun is "always considered loaded", or because a shooter "might be looking down his barrel", or whatever, each of those would also apply if the gun fell to the ground. A case could be made that if the gun was truly loaded (which we know it should not be in this scenario), it might actually be more dangerous for the gun to actualy hit the ground (with the safety off or failed) and possibly discharge. My question here is: If you have a loaded gun (round in chamber) and it falls, would you prefer to let it drop or would you prefer to (instinctively) try to prevent it from hitting the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 This is crazy. It has nothing to do with any "gotcha business" or "looking for ways to DQ people". It is all about safety. There is NO WAY you can convince me it is a safe thing to do to try to catch a falling firearm with the trigger exposed. No way. I know this is going to piss some of you off but catching an unloaded gun is no more dangerous than catching a ball, yes it's against the rules and it's not a great idea but come on. This statement is with all due respect to all of you, so don't get a linch mob after me. By that logic, it's no more dangerous to point an unloaded handgun at your head and pull the trigger than it is to do the same with a stick. Firearms safety rules have numerous redundancies built into them. Violate one, you'll probably be okay...probably. Violate more than one and tragedy will probably occur. USPSA has the terrific safety record it does because of those numerous redundancies. Removing one for no apparent reason is not something I agree with. I understand that fella's... we all dryfire in our homes with unloaded guns... the reason our sport has such a great safety record is us, not the rules (rules can be bent or cheated) it's us and us being responsible with our firearms. We as responsible shooters know when our guns are unloaded and when they are loaded, we're not kids playing in Dad's bedroom... that's all I'm saying. So, you would be OK with me pointing my "unloaded gun" at you? I had guns pointed at me all of the time when I was in the Army, we had war games and we shot blanks at each other and had to trust our fellow soldiers, it was part of the training. We had instuctors pointing unloaded guns at us, by us and all around us during classroom. I am sure that some of our LE members have done these things during their training too. In the end it all comes down to personal responsibility. And to answer your question if I knew you, trusted you and watched you clear the gun, sure you could point it at me... just don't hit me with it... that would hurt. Just to clarify, I truly believe that our safety rules are to best in the bussiness and run my club by the book, if any of you shot one of my matches you would know that. I guess the point I am trying to make is there is competitive shooting and there is reality, the two are completely different monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=50 Question: If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified? Answer: If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=50 Question: If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified? Answer: If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1 Thanks for the update Jeremy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 (edited) http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=50 Question: If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified? Answer: If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1 I am not sure I get it and it could just be me being dense but doesn't this just add further confusion? The question refers to outside of the course of fire and the answer uses a rule (10.5.3.1) refering to during the course of fire to describe how you can trap and then safely lower the gun to the ground. How can the trigger be exposed and you trap it and then safely lower it to the ground outside of the course of fire without handling it? Edited September 14, 2011 by Scott R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 (edited) http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=50 Question: If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified? Answer: If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1 I am not sure I get it and it could just be me being dense but doesn't this just add further confusion? The question refers to outside of the course of fire and the answer uses a rule (10.5.3.1) refering to during the course of fire to describe how you can trap and then safely lower the gun to the ground. How can the trigger be exposed and you trap it and then safely lower it to the ground outside of the course of fire without handling it? The ruling is not considering catching/trapping to be "handling" and saying if it falls out of the holster to the point where the trigger is exposed and catch/trap it, you still have to lower it to the ground and have an RO retrieve it. Or at least that's how I'm reading it. Edited September 14, 2011 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=50 Question: If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified? Answer: If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1 I am not sure I get it and it could just be me being dense but doesn't this just add further confusion? The question refers to outside of the course of fire and the answer uses a rule (10.5.3.1) refering to during the course of fire to describe how you can trap and then safely lower the gun to the ground. How can the trigger be exposed and you trap it and then safely lower it to the ground outside of the course of fire without handling it? I see what you are saying about the ruling is about outside a COF and the rule they point to for reference is a sub-rule under a COF rule. Okay, we are all good on that part. Now, I believe we can't "read into it" that much - they are merely looking for the words "maintains physical contact with the handgun/placed securely on the ground or object"...let's stop there. Now, if you read that ruling again with only that wording, don't look at 10.5.3 or 10.5.3.2, just look at the wording, it would read, "Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and security lower the gun to the ground <insert wording> and maintain constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object <end of insert> and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14." Now that makes sense and we are not confusing the "COF" during or outside stuff. I'm not on the board and can't speak for them. However, as a CRO, this is how I see it and how I will interrupt it if it comes up unless I hear something different. Hope I didn't confuse it even more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=50 Question: If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified? Answer: If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1 I am not sure I get it and it could just be me being dense but doesn't this just add further confusion? The question refers to outside of the course of fire and the answer uses a rule (10.5.3.1) refering to during the course of fire to describe how you can trap and then safely lower the gun to the ground. How can the trigger be exposed and you trap it and then safely lower it to the ground outside of the course of fire without handling it? I see what you are saying about the ruling is about outside a COF and the rule they point to for reference is a sub-rule under a COF rule. Okay, we are all good on that part. Now, I believe we can't "read into it" that much - they are merely looking for the words "maintains physical contact with the handgun/placed securely on the ground or object"...let's stop there. Now, if you read that ruling again with only that wording, don't look at 10.5.3 or 10.5.3.2, just look at the wording, it would read, "Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and security lower the gun to the ground <insert wording> and maintain constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object <end of insert> and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14." Now that makes sense and we are not confusing the "COF" during or outside stuff. I'm not on the board and can't speak for them. However, as a CRO, this is how I see it and how I will interrupt it if it comes up unless I hear something different. Hope I didn't confuse it even more Simply put my question is how do you "safely and security lower the gun to the ground" without handling the handgun as reminded in the last sentence of the answer "Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Yeah, words are going to be minced a little here. Again, just my interruption, if you have trapped the firearm, then continue to lower it to the ground safely by whatever means necessary. If you trapped it with your right palm against your thigh, go to your knees, gently slide it down to the ground to lay there - at that point - DON'T TOUCH IT! STAY WITHIN 3 FEET! CALL AN RO! There are so many interruptations, you just have to hope the RO is experienced and informed enough to make a good judgement call and keep the range safe. That goes for the shooter too, you hope that they are informed of the rules and will make every effort to follow them and be safe. I hope one of the RM/RMIs will jump on this to make sure we are getting this right. The "note" about drawing and handling is for when you see guys playing with their guns in their holster and try to practice their grip/draw while they are walking around. I've seen a guy doing this and actually cleared the holster, he was done for the day. Again, this seemed like a reiteration of the rules about intentional handling versus an unintentional fall/trap scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) I think if you trap it you should call for the RO...at this time the RO can determine that it is trapped and then it may be lowered to the ground w/your hand safely and then the RO picks it up??? if the RO watches you do this after he determines or declares it trapped then the handling is a null point IMO??????My point is if you did trap it with your right palm and an RO sees you lowering it before you called for them it could be considered handling??? Edited September 15, 2011 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Yeah, thats the way I think it should be done too. The board decision did not mention that so we have to focus on the ruling. I guess in the case that an RO is not in the area and the trapped gun might fall quickly, remember its trapped, not held. Good post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 The ruling is not considering catching/trapping to be "handling" and saying if it falls out of the holster to the point where the trigger is exposed and catch/trap it, you still have to lower it to the ground and have an RO retrieve it. Or at least that's how I'm reading it. That's how it reads here, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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