Dropping an unloaded firearm

[Corey]

Don't know what the rules said way back then. But by todays rules thats a DQ without question.

In the immortal words of Yoda: "Hmmm, so certain are you?"

I'd back that call up. Until the words "Range is clear" is uttered from the RO, a dropped gun is an early dismissal. There really isn't a gray area with it.

[aztecdriver]

Don't know what the rules said way back then. But by todays rules thats a DQ without question.

In the immortal words of Yoda: "Hmmm, so certain are you?"

I watched this exact scenario play out at 2010 Nationals. It was a DQ. I'm as certain as it gets Felt real bad for the shooter.

[38superman]

I'm not suggesting otherwise, just playing the devils advocate.

I only bring it up to point out that there was a time when the rules on this subject were not considered to be crystal clear.

What happened then was controversial and in fact was debated, ..... quite vigorously as I understand it.

There has always been language that dropping a gun during a COF is a DQ offense.

The question was "when exactly is the COF over".

I believe this prompted a rules change that explicitly says the COF ends with Range is Clear.

Hey, how many of use have behaved so questionably that it required a rules change? LOL

I think we should call it the "Tony" rule.

One thing is true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I was sweating it.

That's as close to a DQ as you can get without being sent home.

[wide45]

The previous rule was that the end of the course of fire occurred when the competitor completed the holster command.

Not so unclear... And yet left in question what it means to holster a gun.

Believe the rule change was largely made to put the end of COF in the hands of the RO.

Bet a good search would turn up a discussion or two from when it happened, on this very forum.

[ima45dv8]

Bet a good search would turn up a discussion or two from when it happened, on this very forum.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

[Schutzenmeister]

I was once at the center of a raging debate on this subject, so I will chime in.

The following incedent took place at the 2005 Nationals.

I finished a course of fire, and received the "If clear, hammer down and holster command".

I holstered the gun, but it did not seat properly in the Ghost holster (a racegun type rig for limited)

As soon as I took my hand off of the gun, it tumbled out of the holster onto the ground.

The RO wanted to DQ me because he had not yet given "Range is Clear" when the gun fell.

The RangeMaster was called in for a ruling (John Amidon).

The judgement was:

I did holster the gun as commanded.

Once I took my hand off it, I had completed the course of fire.

If it then fell, it was regarded no differently than any unloaded gun falling from a holster anywhere on the range and should be treated the same way.

The RO picks it up and supervises the safe holstering of the firearm.

I was not DQ'd

I discovered later that this incident ignited a firestorm of debate within the leadership of the USPSA.

The heart of the matter was precisely when a course of fire ends.

Tls

The applicable book at that time would have been the 2004 book, Rule 8.3.7.3. Therein, the CoF was deemed to be over after the competitor's hands were clear of the holstered handgun. I seem to remember the controversy it stirred. If I remember correctly, the upshot of the discussions were that if the gun immediately fell out of the holster then the competitor had not successfully holstered the handgun and thus the CoF was not over (since the prerequisit holstering had not taken place.) Hence, and for many ROs to this day, we look for the competitor to take his hand off the gun and the gun to remain in the holster BEFORE we call "Range is Clear" ... which now signifies the end of the CoF under the current rules.

Don't know what the rules said way back then. But by todays rules thats a DQ without question.

In the immortal words of Yoda: "Hmmm, so certain are you?"

If I'm the RO ... 100% I won't call "RIC" until AFTER you release the gun and it stays in your holster. As I said, I'm not the only RO who approaches the situation in this manner. Simply put: I don't know if you've properly holstered your gun until and unless I see it stay in the holster after you let go of it.

Moral: Know your equipment, know how it works, and make SURE it works ... Before you come to the match!

[Gary Johnson]

Yep,

If you lose control of the gun before 'Range is clear' you're still in the COF and out of the match.

I actually preferred ending the COF with successful holstering but it leads to too many arguments.

Don't know what the rules said way back then. But by todays rules thats a DQ without question.

In the immortal words of Yoda: "Hmmm, so certain are you?"

Edited June 29, 2011 by Gary Johnson

[gng4life]

People look at me like I am crazy when I do not give the "Range is clear" command when the competitor is still fumbling to get their gun in the holster...or they still have their hands on the gun that is secured in the holster. "Range is clear" should only be given once the competitor removes their hands from their holster and gun.

Amen to that!

I agree.

I make a point to say "Not yet clear!" if I'm still trying to lock in my gun into my holster and the RO has declared "Range is Clear" too quickly. I understand that the other part of the RO's job is to keep the stage flowing, but I would rather not open the can of worms of trying to parse 10.5.1 and whether I was still trying to comply with the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command.

The RO should make sure you have your pistol locked in or securely placed in your holster before giving the RIC command. However, I wonder why you would not give the command if someone is resting their hand on the grip as long as it is securely holstered? On the other hand, it's probably a good way to ensure you see their hand remove from the pistol providing a better level of comfort for the RO and bystanders that the pistol is secure. Nothing in the rules says you have to do this but if it makes our sport safer, then I'm all for it.

[George Jones]

The previous rule was that the end of the course of fire occurred when the competitor completed the holster command.

Not so unclear... And yet left in question what it means to holster a gun.

Believe the rule change was largely made to put the end of COF in the hands of the RO.

That is exactly correct.

The event at the Nationals highlighted the lack of precision as to when the COF was over. It was determined that the RO should be the one to determine when that occurred, rather than some indistinct moment which is not evident to all concerned.

[Graham Smith]

The event at the Nationals highlighted the lack of precision as to when the COF was over. It was determined that the RO should be the one to determine when that occurred, rather than some indistinct moment which is not evident to all concerned.

So, if the shooter is having a bit of trouble with their gun and the RO calls RIC and the gun hits the dirt, then that's not a DQ?

I want to be very clear about this because I saw it happen last year and a debate ensued.

[George Jones]

The event at the Nationals highlighted the lack of precision as to when the COF was over. It was determined that the RO should be the one to determine when that occurred, rather than some indistinct moment which is not evident to all concerned.

So, if the shooter is having a bit of trouble with their gun and the RO calls RIC and the gun hits the dirt, then that's not a DQ?

I want to be very clear about this because I saw it happen last year and a debate ensued.

I expect the RO to do his job properly. The rules expect that as well. If the RO "fails", the RM is there to clean up the mess.

RO should not call RIC until the gun has been holstered. I wait for the hand to come off the gun. I will not issue RIC unless I see that the hand is off and the gun has been holstered properly. I even wait for the shooter to engage the holster lock if it has one.

Never call RIC unless you have a safe range and that means that the gun has been properly cleared and holstered.

[gng4life]

The event at the Nationals highlighted the lack of precision as to when the COF was over. It was determined that the RO should be the one to determine when that occurred, rather than some indistinct moment which is not evident to all concerned.

So, if the shooter is having a bit of trouble with their gun and the RO calls RIC and the gun hits the dirt, then that's not a DQ?

I want to be very clear about this because I saw it happen last year and a debate ensued.

No, that should not be a DQ. Once RIC is called, the CoF is over and then it is considered a holstered, unloaded firearm, which then falls under 10.5.14 (must be retrieved by an RO and bagged/holstered by them, not the shooter).

[George Jones]

The event at the Nationals highlighted the lack of precision as to when the COF was over. It was determined that the RO should be the one to determine when that occurred, rather than some indistinct moment which is not evident to all concerned.

So, if the shooter is having a bit of trouble with their gun and the RO calls RIC and the gun hits the dirt, then that's not a DQ?

I want to be very clear about this because I saw it happen last year and a debate ensued.

No, that should not be a DQ. Once RIC is called, the CoF is over and then it is considered a holstered, unloaded firearm, which then falls under 10.5.14 (must be retrieved by an RO and bagged/holstered by them, not the shooter).

Be clareful. The answer is not absolute. If the shooter is "having a bit of trouble", then RIC must not yet be declared by the RO.

If the gun drops after RIC is declared by the RO, it is not a DQ as long as the shooter does not touch the gun. If he does touch the gun, then a DQ would apply under 10.5.1.

This is why it is very important that the RO do his job correctly. Only call RIC when the handgun is properly hostered and the shooter has released his grip.

[Poppa Bear]

We had one shooter come REAL close to getting DQ'ed. Holstered his gun after Make Ready and unknown to him the screws holding the holster together had backed out. When he holstered the gun it popped the screws free and the gun started going straight through. He had enough of a grip on the gun yet that it did not make it all the way through the holster before he was able to stop its fall. Had him ULSC, bag it, and then sent him back to repair his holster.

[Schutzenmeister]

We had one shooter come REAL close to getting DQ'ed. Holstered his gun after Make Ready and unknown to him the screws holding the holster together had backed out. When he holstered the gun it popped the screws free and the gun started going straight through. He had enough of a grip on the gun yet that it did not make it all the way through the holster before he was able to stop its fall. Had him ULSC, bag it, and then sent him back to repair his holster.

Last year, at the ND MG Championship, we had one shooter ditch his rifle and, as he picked up his SG, he dropped his HG. Mind you, it was still in the holster ... But the same thing: He had a screw loose! It was immediately called as a DQ and, he didn't argue it in the least.

[Gary Stevens]

I am responsible for the language ending the course of fire as "Range is Clear". I felt the course started on a range command and that it should end on a range command. So far,if the RO does their job, it works well.

USPSA has always worked on the belt and suspenders method when it comes to safety. We layer the safety procedures to make it so that a shooter has to violate multiple safety rules before something serious happens. It is like breaking the 180 will send you home, but nobody potentially dies. Breaking the 180 and having a negligent discharge present the potential of a much more serious outcome.

Gary

[Graham Smith]

He had enough of a grip on the gun yet that it did not make it all the way through the holster before he was able to stop its fall. Had him ULSC, bag it, and then sent him back to repair his holster.

That's tricky. As I understand it, you don't actually have to drop the gun to the ground to be DQ'd - you can just "lose control" of it. This sounds like he was right at or even past that line.

[Nik Habicht]

He had enough of a grip on the gun yet that it did not make it all the way through the holster before he was able to stop its fall. Had him ULSC, bag it, and then sent him back to repair his holster.

That's tricky. As I understand it, you don't actually have to drop the gun to the ground to be DQ'd - you can just "lose control" of it. This sounds like he was right at or even past that line.

I had the same thought -- I'd have to see that one to make the call....

Could go either way...

[Avezorak]

Maybe my RMI will chime in about "losing control" without the gun ever hitting the ground. He told us about a personal experience involving that.

[Poppa Bear]

He never let go of the grip. Had he let go it would have gone straight down. It was close though because there is a point where you expect the gun to stop and you start to relax your grip. He was quick to realize the gun was not snapping in like it was supposed to and tightened his grip back up as the holster came apart.

[George Jones]

He had enough of a grip on the gun yet that it did not make it all the way through the holster before he was able to stop its fall. Had him ULSC, bag it, and then sent him back to repair his holster.

That's tricky. As I understand it, you don't actually have to drop the gun to the ground to be DQ'd - you can just "lose control" of it. This sounds like he was right at or even past that line.

I had the same thought -- I'd have to see that one to make the call....

Could go either way...

The clear answer is to be found in App A3 under "Dropped Gun".

A moment in time, of course, but if he "had enough of a grip", no DQ.

[gng4life]

The event at the Nationals highlighted the lack of precision as to when the COF was over. It was determined that the RO should be the one to determine when that occurred, rather than some indistinct moment which is not evident to all concerned.

So, if the shooter is having a bit of trouble with their gun and the RO calls RIC and the gun hits the dirt, then that's not a DQ?

I want to be very clear about this because I saw it happen last year and a debate ensued.

No, that should not be a DQ. Once RIC is called, the CoF is over and then it is considered a holstered, unloaded firearm, which then falls under 10.5.14 (must be retrieved by an RO and bagged/holstered by them, not the shooter).

Be clareful. The answer is not absolute. If the shooter is "having a bit of trouble", then RIC must not yet be declared by the RO.

If the gun drops after RIC is declared by the RO, it is not a DQ as long as the shooter does not touch the gun. If he does touch the gun, then a DQ would apply under 10.5.1.

This is why it is very important that the RO do his job correctly. Only call RIC when the handgun is properly hostered and the shooter has released his grip.

Hi George, can you clarify that? My understanding is that if the RO calls RIC, then that stops the CoF, correct? So what you are saying is there is a possibility that if the shooter was still fumbling with their firearm (during the re-holster/re-bagging process) and it drops after the RO calls RIC, then the shooter could be DQ'ed? How? That is more of a mistake of the RO, not the shooter. It is our responsibility as ROs to ensure the firearm is correctly and safely secured so the culpability lies back on the RO for not ensuring the pistol was secured.

I just can't see any way possible that the shooter could be a DQ if the RO calls RIC and the shooter follows 10.5.14. Please correct me or give me more info since I'm a little confused now...Thanks for the help!

Edited June 30, 2011 by gng4life

[Skydiver]

The event at the Nationals highlighted the lack of precision as to when the COF was over. It was determined that the RO should be the one to determine when that occurred, rather than some indistinct moment which is not evident to all concerned.

So, if the shooter is having a bit of trouble with their gun and the RO calls RIC and the gun hits the dirt, then that's not a DQ?

I want to be very clear about this because I saw it happen last year and a debate ensued.

No, that should not be a DQ. Once RIC is called, the CoF is over and then it is considered a holstered, unloaded firearm, which then falls under 10.5.14 (must be retrieved by an RO and bagged/holstered by them, not the shooter).

Be clareful. The answer is not absolute. If the shooter is "having a bit of trouble", then RIC must not yet be declared by the RO.

If the gun drops after RIC is declared by the RO, it is not a DQ as long as the shooter does not touch the gun. If he does touch the gun, then a DQ would apply under 10.5.1.

This is why it is very important that the RO do his job correctly. Only call RIC when the handgun is properly hostered and the shooter has released his grip.

Hi George, can you clarify that? My understanding is that if the RO calls RIC, then that stops the CoF, correct? So what you are saying is there is a possibility that if the shooter was still fumbling with their firearm (during the re-holster/re-bagging process) and it drops after the RO calls RIC, then the shooter could be DQ'ed? How? That is more of a mistake of the RO, not the shooter. It is our responsibility as ROs to ensure the firearm is correctly and safely secured so the culpability lies back on the RO for not ensuring the pistol was secured.

I just can't see any way possible that the shooter could be a DQ if the RO calls RIC and the shooter follows 10.5.14. Please correct me or give me more info since I'm a little confused now...Thanks for the help!

I'm not George, but I can see how the DQ may happen.

The shooter finished shooting. The RO gives the "If clear, hammer down, holster" command. The shooter puts the gun back into his race holster and thinks he's locked it in. The shooter lets go of the gun and it stays in place (just like it would at "Make Ready"). The RO gives the "Range is clear" command. As the shooter moves to start following the RO, the gun pops out of the holster. The shooter feeling the movement, instinctively reaches down and traps the gun against his body to keep it from falling to the ground. At that point, it's a DQ under 10.5.14.

I'm partially speaking from experience. I had just gotten a new gun and hadn't done all the correct tweaks to a WSM II to get it to fit correctly. After I had holstered and the "RIC" was given. As I took a step, I felt the gun pop out. Knowing that I wasn't suppose to grab a falling gun, all I could do was look down and watch the gun fall in virtual slow motion. :-(

[George Jones]

Be clareful. The answer is not absolute. If the shooter is "having a bit of trouble", then RIC must not yet be declared by the RO.

If the gun drops after RIC is declared by the RO, it is not a DQ as long as the shooter does not touch the gun. If he does touch the gun, then a DQ would apply under 10.5.1.

This is why it is very important that the RO do his job correctly. Only call RIC when the handgun is properly hostered and the shooter has released his grip.

Hi George, can you clarify that? My understanding is that if the RO calls RIC, then that stops the CoF, correct? So what you are saying is there is a possibility that if the shooter was still fumbling with their firearm (during the re-holster/re-bagging process) and it drops after the RO calls RIC, then the shooter could be DQ'ed? How? That is more of a mistake of the RO, not the shooter. It is our responsibility as ROs to ensure the firearm is correctly and safely secured so the culpability lies back on the RO for not ensuring the pistol was secured.

I just can't see any way possible that the shooter could be a DQ if the RO calls RIC and the shooter follows 10.5.14. Please correct me or give me more info since I'm a little confused now...Thanks for the help!

I don't think my comments above were unclear. Yes, there is a possibility that the shooter could be DQd after RIC if he is still fumbling (handling by rulebook definition) with his gun. I referenced Rule 10.5.1.

This whole part of the thread has been about RO responsibility to NOT issue RIC until after the handgun has been properly cleared and holstered. Failing to correctly perform that duty exposes the shooter to unnecessary risk of DQ.

Something like that happening leads to arguments and the RM would be expected to take that RO to school. If I understand correctly the scenario mentioned from last year's Nationals, that is essentially what happened.

I know if I were the shooter and was DQd, I would be bringing out my $100 if the RM didn't deal with it correctly.

OK?

[George Jones]

The RO gives the "Range is clear" command. As the shooter moves to start following the RO, the gun pops out of the holster. The shooter feeling the movement, instinctively reaches down and traps the gun against his body to keep it from falling to the ground. At that point, it's a DQ under 10.5.14.

Technically, no. This is a different scenario altogether.

In your case, the applicable rule is still 10.5.1 IF you handle the gun (see the App A3 definition). If you simply trap it against your body without using your hand, no DQ. Just call for a RO to take care of it. We know shooters instinctively react to the gun starting to fall and it was decided that no DQ should apply in such a case as long as the gun is not being "handled".

See App A3 also for the definition of "dropped gun" and notice that this definition only applies during the COF. That is the key to what I have mentioned here. There is no penalty for dropping the gun outside of the COF. A DQ only applies if you pick it up or handle it.

This is being taught in RO classes these days.