USPSA 3 Gun Nationals

[kurtm]

Well I just can't help but stir the pot a bit here. ( I know....whats new??) 5 of the 6 REALY big 3-gun matches in the U.S. NEVER even use USPSA rules!!! I know you USPSA types are looking down the old nose right about now, but 3 of these matches have prize tables well in EXCESS of $50,000.00 and fill right to the limit with a waiting list to boot. Has the USPSA Nationals EVER filled?? ( I know the answer, but thought I would see if you did). The "RULES" you want to tout so much DON'T serve the customer!!! At least in 3-gun. I agree with Kelly believe it or don't, but that shouldn't stop the FIRST STEP in the right direction being made. Maybe this year 6 of the big 6 won't be run under USPSA. That would be great!! Open that puppy up to anyone! I know of 5 shooters, all of them darn good, as in you see thier names in the top 20 at any of the other 3-gun matches, that won't attend because they AREN'T USPSA members. Wonder why?? Just hold up that little red book and start in "a range lawyerin". I was thinking of maybe slidding out to see the show, but I am reminded of just why I detest the USPSA mindset!! I MIGHT if it is indeed multigun, If they waffle at all NO WAY! I know, that is my choice, but if enough "that is my choices" decide to no show it will once again be 50-70 people instead of the 250 that the other big matches generate. KURTM

[kimel]

So, the problem really boils down to MV having schedule the 3-Gun Nats too damn early in the year. Had they been scheduled for September/early-October (and the weather is still decent in Reno that time of year) the new rule book would be in effect.

Of course what we do not know is how close the BoD is to getting the new rules out the door.

But boy howdy...I would hate to be handed a new rule book the day before the match as either a shooter or an RO...and it is kinda looking like that is what will happen.

[jkmccoy]

Rule 6.1.3!?!? Where the heck did that come from??? I must have missed it. Mr. Amidon must also have missed it in sanctioning the Texas State 3-Gun match the last couple of years (since we obviously had several multi-gun) stages.

Don't get me wrong. I am firmly in favor of a unified, comprehensive, and complete set of rules (the USPSA rule book is actually pretty good). However, persons of good sense must also be able to recognize when the rules don't/can't apply and respond appropriately (thanks Thoreau).

I absolutely agree that we must have a set of rules and that we must follow the rules. Does it really result in anarchy if we suspend for one match one rule?

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

[mactiger]

Well I just can't help but stir the pot a bit here. ( I know....whats new??) 5 of the 6 REALY big 3-gun matches in the U.S. NEVER even use USPSA rules!!!

Stir away, dude, I think it needs it.

The matches you refer to don't bill themselves as USPSA matches, so of course they don't use our rules. They do use some rules, though, don't they? And, nobody is saying they have to use our rules. But, the USPSA 3 Gun National Championship must use the USPSA rules, or it can't be billed as such. There's no ignoring that fact, and it's silly to even consider it. Michael Voigt has stated that he wants USPSA to lead the IPSC world--we can't do that by just ignoring the rules we don't like. He especially can't do it, because he's head of the IPSC rules committee. Not to mention it goes against the bylaws.

(I know, Geoff, all silly little problems that could just be swept away with a wave of the magic wand and some pixie dust.)

Like Kimel says, if the match had not been advertised very prematurely as a multi-gun match, there would not be this last minute scramble to get rules approved. Although I think we should have had the rest of the rules available in January at the latest.

I fully agree with you on one thing, Kurt, USPSA's 3 Gun rules don't serve the customer, and that needs to change if we hope to grow the sport. I know the board is working hard on that right now, and I truly hope they approve and distribute the multi gun, and all the other rules ASAP. The organization has been lagging on that too long. I realize that the other long gun matches fill up and do better than the USPSA 3 Gun, and I've felt for a while that our rules were the problem. However, anybody that produces a USPSA 3 Gun match is obligated to operate under those rules. The main reason I accepted a spot on the IPSC rifle committee is because I thought I could make a difference. In some ways that worked, in other ways it didn't, but we are making progress.

Like I said in an earlier post, I've recently reviewed two drafts of multi gun rules. They should be approved shortly (at least that's what I'm told), and be available to the membership. I'm pretty sure they'll be provisional rules, that is, subject to member input and comment during whatever period the BOD sets--most likely a year. That would be the time for all of you who are interested in making the rules serve the customer to provide constructive input to your Area Director. They probably won't be perfect, but they'll be a very big step in the right direction, IMO.

I've seen some good suggestions on this forum for ways to deal with all the variations possible for matches shot with more than one gun. There's no shortage of ideas out there, you and I just have to make sure that someone is listening. I hoped to raise some awareness of the serious problems with the rules and the multigun stages proposed for this year's Nationals. I'm glad to see that some of you are paying attention: it's a real problem, but not an insurmountable one.

Troy

[mactiger]

Rule 6.1.3!?!? Where the heck did that come from??? I must have missed it. Mr. Amidon must also have missed it in sanctioning the Texas State 3-Gun match the last couple of years (since we obviously had several multi-gun) stages.

Don't get me wrong. I am firmly in favor of a unified, comprehensive, and complete set of rules (the USPSA rule book is actually pretty good). However, persons of good sense must also be able to recognize when the rules don't/can't apply and respond appropriately (thanks Thoreau).

I absolutely agree that we must have a set of rules and that we must follow the rules. Does it really result in anarchy if we suspend for one match one rule?

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

Yes, and I missed it too. But, now that the mistake is found, we need to correct it, and we can't do that by continuing to ignore it.

I don't think it hurt anything to hold multi gun matches, and they certainly have been well received and well run. I think we need them. I also think we need to have some rules that we can grow with, to ensure that the playing field is level all over the country.

Anarchy? No. The appearance that USPSA doesn't have to follow the rest of the IPSC rules? Yes. We can do that in a formal fashion, by drafting our own, as can any IPSC region. We can't do it informally by ignoring the ones we don't like.

Troy

[jkmccoy]

Wasn't really disagreeing with you Troy (just tryin' to keep the conversation lively!). I firmly believe in a good set of rules and following all of the rules all of the time. I had honestly missed 6.1.3. We have run a couple of big 3-gun matches with multi-gun stages with no problems and that were well received by the shooters (Heck, they were both a BLAST to shoot).

It would be FAR preferable for the USPSA BOD to approve a really comprehensive and functional set of rules for multi-gun matches before the 3-Gun Nationals, but that seems fairly unlikely at this point. I do NOT believe that 6.1.3 should be allowed to radically alter the nature of the match. I would not have any serious problem with the BOD issuing a temporary (for this match only) suspension of 6.1.3 pending approval of a complete set of multi-gun rules.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

[ccur]

As I think about shooting the 3-Gun Nats in Vegas several years ago, I remember shooting a shotgun/pistol combo stage (remember starting on the hood of a car, shoot the pistol, finish up with the shotgun)...and a rifle/pistol stage (the one that Jerry Michulek broke his charging handle off)..so in reality, we have been shooting multi gun stages under USPSA sanction...

Cheryl

[Barrettone]

I have to agree with Troy on this guys. There is a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE than you are seeing. Suspending one rule DOES HAVE a cascading effect on the other rules!!! Target engagement with the wrong gun, condition the gun is left in when advancing, order of engagement, how the range is cleared, procedurals, handling of 3-gun carts, do we mandate flagged chambers between stages, etc.... It creates a logistical nightmare to insure that the CRO on range 6 is making the same calls as the CRO on range 9 without a COMPREHENSIVE RULEBOOK.

Consistency would suffer, and would leave the competitor saying "WTF"??? I'm as pissed as all of you are about this process dragging on, and a nationals that is 6 weeks away with multi-gun stages with no CONSISTENT RULES formulated. This isn't a level II sectional guys and gals...THIS IS THE USPSA 3-GUN NATIONALS!!!

OK, OK, you say that attendance suffers compared to the other "premier" 3-Gun matches...If that is what it takes...another year to get it right, then so be it. Listen, I LOVE 3-Gun, but there is a bigger picture here. Pistol matches are still the biggest motor that drives the USPSA machine, and while I do not want to alienate the 3-gunners, we have to follow the USPSA rules to honor our commitments to IPSC. Otherwise, we become a rogue, and jeoprodize our power base.

3-gun is stillin it's infancy. Look at how many MAJOR matches are pistol-only, and how many MAJOR matches are 3-Gun...'nuff said. 3-gun WILL BE a bigger motor one day, but right now, it needs to be handled with care within the IPSC (USPSA regional) rules. If not, then we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

So the IPSC "mindset" is really due to people understanding where our bread is buttered, and coming to an amicable solution to achieve a good (and fair) result for ALL involved. This comes at a price, and that is that it takes more time. It is human nature to want things now, and be impatient...but never lose sight of the BIG PICTURE. It is easy to say "just throw that rule out"...but the cost in the LONG RUN will be far greater than if you took the time to do it right the first time around. Things have "slipped under the radar" for long enough at the local and even sectional level already. That has got to stop or USPSA will lose credibility with it's constituency.

Look, I'm the Co-MD for the Area 5 3 -Gun, and believe me, I'm sh#tting tacks right now over the rules, and what effects they will have on our match. How do I get my RO's, and CRO's on the same page with such short notice? How will I maintain that all-important "level playing field" for my competitors? What effects will it have on my already-approved level III stages? These are just a few of the questions that I don't think many of you are answering to the n'th degree. Because trust me, if we don't...the competitors will, when their devious minds begin the gaming process, and this can have disasterous effects for both the match, and ultimately, SAFETY.

The only solice I take, is that we are after Nationals, and poor 'ol Monte is the guinea pig. Sorry Monte...but better you than me!!! In short...I CARE ABOUT 3-GUN, and where it goes. Let's just get it there intact, and piss of as few of the people as we can. We can't make everybody happy, but we can try to please the masses. Can I get an amen???

Jeff

[mactiger]

AMEN!

Troy

[Religious Shooter]

What are you guys talking about?

6.1.1 Stage: An individual shooting challenge. Each stage shall be scored and timed and scored seprately, to determine final stage results. A standard exercise stage may consist of more than one string.

6.1.3 Match: An IPSC shooting competition consisting of a minimum of one stage. The total sum of individual stage results shall be accumulated to declare a match winner. A match shall include only one type of firearm (e.g. handgun or shotgun etc.)

6.1.4 Tournament: An IPSC shooting competition consisting of two or more firearm specific matches...

[Typed from original. What happened to the HTML version of the rulebook!]

Multi-gun MATCHES are prohibited. But, the 3Gun Nationals (3GN) is a TOURNAMENT. So the 3GN consists of three MATCHES (pistol, rilfle & shotgun).

There may be a difficulty in scoring... But I don't see where there is a multi-gun STAGE prohibition.

[George]

Although I believe that you can have a challenging and fun 3 Gun match without multi-gun stages

Someone doesn't shoot much 3gun Sorry, just couldn't resist.

The multi-gun aspect is a very big thing. I can shoot Sporting Clays if it's just shotgun that cranks my starter. I can shoot NRA High Power Rifle if I just wanna shoot a smokepole. There is a P-Shooter (pistol) match every half hour around here if thats my interest. Why would I ever want to go to a single gun stage 3 gun match again?

I would hate to be handed a new rule book the day before the match as either a shooter or an RO...and it is kinda looking like that is what will happen

Hi Kev,

I don't think that will be an issue if the changes are the ones I think they are. Nothing will change as far as engagement, scoring, divisions, etc. All safety rules will stay the same with the exception of a couple of long gun handling and clearing rules which should be no big issue to anyone actually familiar with long guns (no joke, you gotta know em to shoot em in my book).

I absolutely agree that we must have a set of rules and that we must follow the rules. Does it really result in anarchy if we suspend for one match one rule?

Mr McCoy is talking some sense here. Adherence is one thing. Blind obedience to trivialities as though they were the meat of the matter is another thing entirely. This rule is trivial at best and irrelevant to what we go to matches for. The shooting, not the rulebook must be what we are looking to uphold first, second, and third. The rules support the shooting, not the other way around. If it needs to be changed, change it. Government level process is not always a good thing.

if the match had not been advertised very prematurely as a multi-gun match

That is an interesting "re-interpretation" of the original statement and an interesting point to ponder.

I would not have any serious problem with the BOD issuing a temporary (for this match only) suspension of 6.1.3 pending approval of a complete set of multi-gun rules.

I wouldn't either. It's usually called a rider, an attachement, an ammendment, a waiver. Find the term that honks your horn. The answers are out there. Do you want to find them?

BTW, if there is anyone out there that I haven't managed to PO, let me know

But seriously, I just want to see USPSA run real 3 gun, not individual pistol matches with some long gun stages thrown in.

Thanks for listening all.

--

Geoffrey Linder

TY-11141

Edited May 13, 2004 by George

[Flexmoney]

Doesn't our Regional Director (Mike V.) have the ability to exempt some of the rules in certain situations?

And...wouldn't somebody have to protest the stages?

(I know, and agree, that it sure would be nice to have this ironed out ahead of time.)

[kurtm]

Barrettone:

3-gun may be in it's infancy to you, but I have been enjoying 3-gun matches with multi gun stages for 15 years now, and one venue, befor it closed, was working on its 24th year. I do agree that if the "rules" aren't followed, it can't be USPSA. GREAT!! Call it the North West 3-gun Challenge, scrap the GOOFY USPSA rules. Use the tried and true International Multi-gun rules, and FILL the match. I am starting to think that since, as you point out, there are so many more "large" pistol matches that USPSA should direct it's endevors twards that and leave 3-gun alone.

I joined USPSA so I could qualify for a slot to the European Shotgun Championships. Having been a member for almost a year now, I find that, wonder of wonders, I am still unclassified. Hmm, must not shoot a lot of pistol, although the "clubs" here in Oklahoma are leaps and bounds better and friendlier than those I have seen else where, I find shooting "just one" to be a bit boring. I have no desire to go to a "big pistol match", so at the end of my membership I probably won't be "reupping". OH DARN, I'll just have to miss 1 match out of 6 available. In Front Sight I have noticed that USPSA is loosing members or isn't growing. Wonder why?? Just hold up that "ol red book" and a start slingin around 6.14.3s and 6.13.6s. Besides I wouldn't want to be a member of any organization that would take me as a member KURTM

[uscbigdawg]

Amen, Kurt.

Rich

[mactiger]

Geoff and Kurt: did you guys read what I wrote? Here it is again:

I fully agree with you on one thing, Kurt, USPSA's 3 Gun rules don't serve the customer, and that needs to change if we hope to grow the sport. I know the board is working hard on that right now, and I truly hope they approve and distribute the multi gun, and all the other rules ASAP. The organization has been lagging on that too long. I realize that the other long gun matches fill up and do better than the USPSA 3 Gun, and I've felt for a while that our rules were the problem.

Perhaps the answer is to take a look at the other sports rules and modify USPSA rules to more closely mesh. I don't have a problem with that at all. In fact, if you can point me to the rules for the other organizations, I'll be happy to check them out.

Flex, in a way the President can modify or change rules to meet the needs of the region, (at least he can start the process) but he can't just declare it to be so. There is a process involved (and that applies to all regions), and the board must be involved. They should be getting shooter input, too. That's how we have US versions of IPSC rules.

I don't think USPSA should drop 3 Gun, but I do think we (the organization) need to study the way other sports do it, and serve the customer.

Someone doesn't shoot much 3gun    Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Actually, I shoot as much as I can. However it also sounds like someone has never been involved in actually producing a major match.

I think we've beat this horse to death, anyway. 3 Gun needs to change, but there must be rules for it, and the people who shoot it and officiate the matches need to know those rules, as well as have input into making them. That's the only way that USPSA will "serve the customer". Does anyone disagree with that?

I hope the match is a success, and that the board comes up with a way to make all the multi gun stuff happen. Good luck to everyone involved with it.

Troy

BTW: I started a thread a while back looking for suggestions for Nationals. Please feel free to go there and write what you want to see happen.

Edited May 14, 2004 by mactiger

[Barrettone]

Kurt:

Sorry...I should have clarified. 3-Gun is in its infancy as it relates to USPSA. And I know...you HATE the red book. I think I've heard that from other people on a few occasions . Anyway, I agree, that the rules need to be better adapted to 3-Gun if it is to flourish. I hope it gets done soon so we can all type less, and shoot more!!!

Jeff

[Barrettone]

Oh, BTW Kurt...I can't believe they even PROCESSED my app for USPSA. You'd think they'd at least do a background check or something to keep the riff-raff out!!!

Jeff

[jkmccoy]

Let's not get too hasty. We don't need for USPSA to abandon 3-Gun competition. We do need for USPSA to develop/adopt a useful and workable set of rules for REAL 3-Gun matches. We should definitely look at other 3-Gun matches and their rules and shamelessly borrow the good thing from their rules. Rules can be a good thing. A really good set of rules can be a great thing.

At present, the best possible outcome would be for the BOD to approve and publish a set of rules far in advance of the 3-Gun Nationals. Failing that, I think it would be far preferable to publish a temporary suspension of 6.1.3 instead of drastically altering the nature of the match. (Apparently we have been ignoring this rule for years. Let's officially ignore it at least once more.)

BTW...I saw Kurt M. shoot at least one USPSA 3-Gun match this year and he looked like he was having a good time despite the rules.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

[George]

Actually, I shoot as much as I can. However it also sounds like someone has never been involved in actually producing a major match.

Have done enough to know it doesn't rival big projects. 3gun is where you shoot more than one of them in a stage more often than not, anything else is basically a pistol match.

And that durned rulebook has a whole lot of stuff in it that has little to do with scorin, shootin' and keepin' it safe. After those three, it should all be up to the MD for 3 gun. P-Shooter tournaments need to be another story IMHO. There just isn't enough time in the world to lawyer three gun like that.

Just cause you can bring a pea shooter to a 3gun match, doesn't mean it should be run by pistol match rules.

Cheers'

BTW, can anyone provide a rationale for 6.1.3 that will justify it's existence? or was someone just plain nuts

-

Geoffrey (I dun dat!) Linder

TY-11141

[kurtm]

Mr McCoy:

I did indeed enjoy your match, the liquid sun shine was to die for! The R.O.s were great! and the stages were fun. Oh yea and the reason for all the above is you guys obviously forgot to enforce 6.1.3, and probably a couple other 6. somethings. Therefore it COULDN'T have been a USPSA match HA, so there, You didn't really see me shoot one now did you You also didn't see me gain 10 pounds on the way home from that HUGE solid chocolate bunny.

As an aside, I am also going to shoot the Mississippi 3-gun match. I was talked into this by Benny Hill and signed up BEFOR I found out it was NOT going to be multigun. They obviously found the wayward 6.1.3 so it won't really be a 3-gun match, But if Mr. McCoy attends he will then be able to say he saw me shoot a real USPSA match. KURTM

[RiggerJJ]

if you can point me to the rules for the other organizations, I'll be happy to check them out.

Troy,

The IMGA rules that SMM3G in Mesa AZ used are at;

Superstition Mystery Mountain 3 Gun

The MGM Iron Man 3 gun rules;

MGM

The JP Rocky Mountain 3 Gun match rules;

Rocky Mountain 3 Gun

And the local match Rocky Mountain 3 Gun rules;

Local Rocky Mountain 3 Gun

I'm sure there are more out there, these are just the ones I had a shortcut too...

Blue Skies!

JJ

[jkmccoy]

Kurt,

I don't know where the heck that 6.1.3 rule came from! I'm sure I never saw it in my rulebook before this thread came up and I looked for it. The stages for the 2004 Texas State 3-Gun were sent to Mr. Amidon for sanctioning and he said it "Looked like fun". Sounds like an official USPSA match to me.

We've been ignoring that rule for years at 3-gun matches. USPSA has a good set of rules for scoring and safety. It shouldn't be hard for us to adapt those rules to 3-gun matches as well. We have run a lot of "USPSA" 3-gun matches that "sort-of" followed the rules and they have all worked out well. You heard what Kurt said. The Texas State 3-Gun was a good match (although we missed rule 6.1.3) because we worked hard to put on a good match (challenging stages, good RO's). There is no reason that the 3-gun nationals (and future USPSA 3-gun matches) can't equal that level of shooter satisfaction. The BOD has the chance to write a set of rules that really allows serious 3-gun matches. Without that set of rules they still have a chance to suspend the rules (current rules) that prevent a serious 3-gun match.

Alas, I cannot make it to the Mississippi State 3-Gun match. The timing is just bad for me. However, several of the SAGC crew are entered in the New Mexico State 3-Gun Championship on 29/30 May. As I understand it will be a "real" USPSA match. If you can get yourself to San Angelo I'm sure you can catch a ride to Alamogordo.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

[BPiatt]

Hello all,

I just wanted to drop my 2 cents into the mix to hopefully to get you all to lighten up and have fun.

I'm feeling like an "old salty dog" here. I've been shooting USPSA since the early 80's (member # A-1529) and have been to over 20 Nationals, both pistol and 3-gun... top 16 in every one of them, bar one, lucky enough to win a 3-gun too.

Back when I first started, the rule book was a little thinner than what it is now. There weren't as many problems back then either. Much like many of the other 3-gun match rules. Walk up to the stage .... listen to the walk thru.... and do what it says. You should get 'dinged' with a penalty if you don't.. Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

At least that's how I've kept it fun for myself.

I hope you can too.

See you on the range.

Bruce Piatt

[kurtm]

Bruce:

Right on!! It was simpler, and that is a good thing , Believe it or not I have been talked into giving it a try, I just hope I don't regret the time off AFTER it,s all over. Who knows after blating the "lawyerin" side of USPSA lo these many years, I might be the first to D.Q.. I am bringin arbitration funds See you there. KURTM

[mactiger]

Thanks, Bruce. Good to hear from you, and good advice, too.

I'm all for making 3 Gun more accessible and fun within USPSA.

One thing to note, guys: our (IPSC) rules started out as a single typewritten sheet, similar, I suspect, to the 3 Gun rules I read on the links provided. As time passed, and shooters pushed the envelope, both equipment- and procedure-wise, those rules evolved. I'm not saying that all of them are good, or that we need them--just a bit of history. I must say that I did see some new rules added to the JP and MM 3 Gun sheets, so those are growing a bit, too. Not as complex as USPSA rules, but still changing to meet the dynamics of the sport. I think that's inevitable. In fact, a couple of them use USPSA rules in the majority. But, and this is also a good thing, there were no rules restricting course design, which is basically what this discussion has been all about: allowing the match organizers the freedom to do what they want with a course to make it fun and challenging, while still maintaining safety at a high level. Is that a fair summation of what today's 3-Gun competitor wants from USPSA?

I know we discussed the one A hit/two any other hit type system during our rifle rules work. It didn't seem to be a viable alternative, but taken in the context of a time-only scoring system, I can see how it would work. (Damn, I can't believe I said that.)

I know the BOD is working on a provisional set of rules right now--when they come out, everybody who has a dog in this fight needs to let them know what's right and what's wrong with them, and how to fix them to grow the sport.

Thanks for the comments.

Troy