shred Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I know why they do it, but it still annoys me when they lump GM and M together for placement and trophies. At a recent sectional-sized match, there were 3 GM's in Open. They won HOA Open, 1st M/GM and 2nd M/GM. First Master was 3rd M/GM with 86%. The other nine Masters got nothing (lower classes with as few as 3 shooters got trophies). Realistically M's have about as much chance of winning a match with nationally-quality GM's in it as a B shooter does of winning a combined A&B class. Yeah, it may happen every so often, but that's by far the exception. Why not recognize everybody for where they are in the skill continuum? I'm not hacking on this particular match. They announced this policy in their match booklet and stuck by it (even adding additional trophies for other classes that deserved them), but wanted to rant just so other MD's might take heed and think a little about what they're saying to some of the most committed shooters in their match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 your lucky, in the philippines, its free for all. Meaning all classes compete for the top prize. whatever your class is you will compete for the top 10 prizes against gms,ms etc. too bad that most wont win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Shred, what match might that be? Pretty sure I was at that awards ceramony today. I wouldn't know anything about being a M/GM on any level but I thought that was odd?! TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I definately tend to agree with you. my only possible explination is that they ordered this stuff a little while ago. last year there were ZERO GM's there. This year there were five. I think it was more from an unexpected standpoint with the number of GM's. I agree that they should definately be seperate though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capizzo Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I might be wrong about this but I think when the GM class was first proposed it was going to be for HOA ONLY. I think the intention was not to create another class but to say, " If you're this good, your goal ought to be HOA." Period. Of course I don't think anyone envisioned there being as many GM level shooters as there are today either. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 19, 2004 Author Share Posted April 19, 2004 I remember one MD (at a far-off match) saying "We figure you M's & GM's are here to win the match, so we don't have trophies for you except HOA". I understand the hassle and cost of ordering plaques-- especially trying to guess who will show up a month or two in advance, but there are ways around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Al, I'm pretty sure that you are right. GM's always shoot to win the match, period. Those who have been around for a while know that and it's accepted. Masters are recognized as a seperate class. Combining Master and Grand Master is not right; Shred, you have a completely valid point. I hope that the MD get's it right next time. Consistency and fairness are an important part of USPSA and that's one thing that helps promote the growth of the sport. Regards, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 As long as we have a class system we should use it. However, I truly believe the only way to ensure fairness and consistency is to just do away with the classification system and shoot heads up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I thought GM was a HOA class only. Our sections don't recognize GM's for anything other than that. It is a no trophy class basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 we have debated this one B4. I think Shred is right, and concur with Ron that we should shoot heads up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 19, 2004 Author Share Posted April 19, 2004 I'm ok with heads-up, but then again, I'm up there in the 'heads'. My SO is trying to get a C-card and really likes seeing how she does compared to the other shooters in D-class. Not knowing all the D-shooters by reputation and name, it's nice to have that letter on the results sheet to look for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I like heads up but it would discourage a lot of people. I think that the way people are classified needs to change. Any big match over a certain number of M/GM's needs to be an instant classification for a percentage shot above class. If you are a C and shoot 80% then you are automatically an A. Instead of the score just being another classifier like now. That or like IDPA if you beat so many people in the next class up you get moved instantly. There are WAY too many sandbagers out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 11, 2008 Author Share Posted May 11, 2008 BTT. A friend ended up with a 3rd GM/M trophy when he really deserved a 1st M... 'specially as there were 7 M's and 6 GMs in the division... more than either D or U, both of which got 1-2-3's.. (interestingly enough, in conflict with the latest USPSA rulebook Appendix A1 which says Level III matches can't recognize classes without at least 10 entries.. I don't like that rule much either) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 BTT. A friend ended up with a 3rd GM/M trophy when he really deserved a 1st M... 'specially as there were 7 M's and 6 GMs in the division... more than either D or U, both of which got 1-2-3's.. (interestingly enough, in conflict with the latest USPSA rulebook Appendix A1 which says Level III matches can't recognize classes without at least 10 entries.. I don't like that rule much either) You called me a Friend .....Thats the best reward I could hope for. It was a hot! match Alamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 In NRA A/P we have High Master, Master, Expert, Sharpshooter and Marksman. The rulebook states that when combining classes no class will be combined with the High Master class. High Master shooters compete for high overall awards only if there are not enough entries to give a class award. In A/P, a class must have 3 shooters to qualify for one award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 (edited) Way to resurrect a four year old thread there Shred! Edited May 12, 2008 by Jeeper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 Way to resurrect a four year old thread there Shred! It's like a fine wine, this rant I moved it to the Match Ops area so people can rebut if they want. FWIW I have a question in to Amidon about the legality of combining divisions under the 2008 rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Way to resurrect a four year old thread there Shred! It's a good rant I moved it to the Match Ops area so people can rebut if they want. FWIW I have a question in to Amidon about the legality of combining divisions under the 2008 rulebook. Hey! ...Hey!, leave it alone! :popcorn1: I have a trophy with GM on it ...I don't want to have to give it back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Why not recognize everybody for where they are in the skill continuum?I'm not hacking on this particular match. They announced this policy in their match booklet and stuck by it (even adding additional trophies for other classes that deserved them), but wanted to rant just so other MD's might take heed and think a little about what they're saying to some of the most committed shooters in their match. How do you actually know where someone is? I understand the classification system is set up to be a system of measure, but it is flawed at best. I've seen results where A, B, and C, class shooters smoked the M and GM. Did they have a good day? Was it a match set up to their strong points? Do they sandbag the classifiers? Are they in another class at a higher level and take the default "one class lower" and shoot a match with say Lim10 instead of Limited? I mean, if a GM Limited shooter only loads 10 rounds in his Limited gun then he can compete in Limited 10 as a Master by default. What really makes me giggle is when the C or D class guys really show out at a major match and smoke 90% of the group. And can you really measure commitment by someone's skill level? I know people that have been B class shooters for 5+ years. They do their dry fire drills and never miss a local club match. They practice live fire at least twice a week, but due to old eyes, physical handicaps, or whatever the reason, does it mean they are less committed than a Master class shooter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 And can you really measure commitment by someone's skill level? I know people that have been B class shooters for 5+ years. They do their dry fire drills and never miss a local club match. They practice live fire at least twice a week, but due to old eyes, physical handicaps, or whatever the reason, does it mean they are less committed than a Master class shooter? Well, I know extremely few Master and GM-class shooters that aren't committed to the sport. I can't say the same about other classes, although I know many committed participants in those classes as well. Anyway, the word from Amidon, as of five minutes ago is: Level III and Nationals is a minimum of 10 competitors per class(mandatory), plus the requirements of the divisions to be recognized must be met first, and in a level III, that is a minimum of 10 competitors per division, again mandatory. You cannot group C and D to recognize a class, as it defeats the classification process. Regards, John Amidon (I asked about C and D as well as M / GM to provide a little perspective..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 Hey! ...Hey!, leave it alone! :popcorn1: I have a trophy with GM on it ...I don't want to have to give it back You should have had a USPSA President's Medal to go along with it.. I've got a 3rd GM/M trophy or two around and I know what they mean, but nobody ever merges the other classes together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 (edited) A President's Medal would be very nice to have. I would be glad to send the trophy back to get one. But I also know that the only reason I finished that well was that others had problems. Edited May 12, 2008 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 But I also know that the only reason I finished that well was that others had problems. Don't degrade your performance, Jamie You shot a clean match with just a few Ds. You got the results your performance deserved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 The only thing I really have to add to this is that I don't think anyone holding a GM card really expects any sort of GM class trophies or prizes, or whatever. Most of us expect to be shooting heads-up. If an MD decides to do something different, that's his choice, really, but... I thought it was rather odd that GM and M were lumped together in a class, and I don't really feel that's fair to the M guys. I don't see anything in the rules that state that a GM must only shoot for overall placement - I think that's just a generally understood concept. With that said, though... I never figured that A2 would be used to suggest that a match gave out too many prizes... I always figured it was there to insure that a match gave out recognition, not to prevent it from doing so (ie, setting a minimum standard for a match to meet, not setting a cap on what they can choose to deliver, as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 (edited) What he said... Edited May 12, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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