The Myth of The 9 in 1 Gun Being Best for IDPA

[ron durham]

Hi Shooters:

I read more than I post but lately on a lot of Web Pages, I have been hearing people say "The best gamer gun is the single stack 40 or 9mm being best" because you have an even number of rounds. I have been doing this for a long time and I have owned just about every IDPA gun out there and my view is another one of those myths.

Let me give you some examples.....the scenarios goes this way, you open the door, you shoot the bad guy 4 times to the body, 1 to the head, 2 shots in the other two bad guys, I think that would be a total of 9. You run to the right, you have three more targets to engage, you get one shot off.....uh-oh.....I have to reload and then go back to that target. So.......we have another myth.

Let's say that I run to a wall, shoot two bad guys, two shots each, shoot a steel, move to another wall, have six shots to shoot, gosh look at the math. Basically it all boils down to stage design. If the match directors will mix them up, there is no advantage to 9 in 1 or 10 in 1, or 7 and 1, or 8 in 1. Anyway, that is my view. I have talked to at least a dozen good shooters that have shot single stacks 9 in 1 capacity and all feel like I do, no advantage or disadvantage.

Well, I am not completely hard headed.....tell me where I am wrong.

Ron Durham

[BillD]

I always try to add a head shot or two or a steels to mix up the odd / even thing.

[BigDave]

I think it is safe to say that good stage design can take the advantage away from any class or gun (assuming they have an advange to start with).

[Joe D]

I want as many rounds as I can get in the gun. I normally shoot ESP with a Glock 35 and like the fact that I can start a stage with 11 in the gun. If I shoot a stage that has 5 targets that get 2 each, then a reload and more targets I just put 3 rounds in one of the first 5 targets. Takes all of .16 seconds for the third round.

[Matthew_Mink]

I want as many rounds as I can get in the gun. I normally shoot ESP with a Glock 35 and like the fact that I can start a stage with 11 in the gun. If I shoot a stage that has 5 targets that get 2 each, then a reload and more targets I just put 3 rounds in one of the first 5 targets. Takes all of .16 seconds for the third round.

You mean you dump rounds? Isn't that a FTDR?

[TRG65]

I agree Ron.

I shoot my 1911 9mm about the same as my G-34 when it comes to final scores. The G-34 might get a slight edge, but it's a better setup gun. I know a gentleman who always shoots a 1911, usually a 9mm Nowlin. He and his shooting partner (a Glock 17 user) swapped for a reshoot. He shot the G-17 to a better score than his Nowlin 9mm.

Between 10 and 9 round capacity mags as long as the stages are set up to IDPA rules (18 max required rounds) and the hits are good its not going to make a difference. Force the second reload on the CDP shooters, now you might see some difference.

[Sac Law Man]

Ron,

Not only have you owned all the IDPA guns, but you can shoot them all prety darn good too..

[dajarrel]

You mean you dump rounds?  Isn't that a FTDR?

Sure it is.

Doesn't FTDR mean" Fired Till i could do a Decent Reload"?

dj

[rhino]

Obvious, with good course design, the 9 vs. 10 rounds thing is a wash over the long haul.

There are some elements that enhance the gaming aspects that aren't affected by course design. A single stack gun, whether it holds 9+1 or 10+1 is always going to be slower to reload (given the same skill level, of course) than a wide body gun like an STI, S-V or Para with the biggest magwell that will still allow it to fit in the box. That alone makes the "single stack with either 10 or 11 rounds" something of a moot issue in terms of gamery.

Gamery, of course, is the IDPA equivalent of Strategery.

[Joe D]

I have never given anyone a FTDR for putting an additional round into a target. Putting more than one down range is stretching it though. I am such a poor shooter that most of my targets will have a -3 or mike to make up. The other problem is some of my loads do not go through the cardboard. Dimpled hits don't count. I guess one day I will start putting powder in my loads.

[ron durham]

Hi Sac Lawman:

Thanks for the nice words. You younger guys have passed me up, I hope I was a mark for you to beat. You did it the right way, good gun handling skills, smooth reloads and good accuracy. Keep it up but I will STILL BEAT YOU IF I CAN!! HA.

Joe D:

I can't decide whether you were kidding or serious. Why don't you do me a favor and e-mail Dru Nichols at IDPA HQ. and ask her if shooting extra rounds at targets to gain an advantage for your reload or downloading magazine to gain advantage is okay. The only thing I am worried about is her maybe breaking her leg falling off the chair laughing. Let me know, I am sure curious of her ruling.

Ron Durham

[Duane Thomas]

Well, I am not completely hard headed.....tell me where I am wrong.

You're not wrong.

[Duane Thomas]

A single stack gun, whether it holds 9+1 or 10+1 is always going to be slower to reload (given the same skill level, of course) than a wide body gun like an STI

Honestly, I don't believe that's true. Certainly the "advantage" in IDPA rather than USPSA/IPSC where all we do is speedloads is seriously debatable. While the wide body may have an advantage on emergency (i.e. speed) reloads, the singlestack mags go into pockets more easily during Reloads With Retention and Tactical Reloads. Really, I think it's a wash.

On a singlestack a lot of how easy it is to do a fast reload has to do with your mag funnel and how it's modified - or IF it's modified. Most mag funnels give you an angled "ramp" around the mag well opening but the actual opening is barely larger than the well itself. Bang a mag off that "ramp" and you're looking at whole tenths lost even if you eventually get it in the hole. Some funnels like the Wilson don't even have a profile that goes all the way out to the circumference of the grips. Instead they're flat on the sides. By contrast, get yourself an S&A mag funnel where the circumference of the funnel goes all the way out the outlines of the grips, and then open that puppy up to the limits of the funnel, and that "difficult to load" singlestack just got a LOT easier. Narrow mag, BIG hole. Oooh baby.

[Joe D]

Ron, downloading a mag will get you a 3 second penality on my squad the first time. Do it again and you get a FTDR. As I said earlier I would never give someone a penality for shooting one extra round at a target. Two or more will get you a penality.

Perfect example was last Sat. at the SCSSA match. Guy on my squad shot three rounds on a target that only required two. His first two shots were touching. He thought he had a miss and made up a shot. I don't think any SO, with just a touch of common sense, would issue a penality. I certainly did not.

I am open to an explanation as to just how an SO could determine if one extra shot was done just to get to slide lock. If a shooter's first two shots are a 0 and a -1 and he puts another round into the target all he has to say is he was trying to made up the -1. Even if both were 0s he could say he thought he had a bad sight picture on one of the shots and put another round in the target to make sure.

Maybe I am too lax when I run a squad, I don't think so. I don't try and nit pick the shooters to death. I want to be fair and consistent. Quickest way to run shooters off is to be a Range Nazi.

[ron durham]

Well Joe, go back to your original post where you said you simply put three shots in a target.....that is blatently against principles and purpose. I absolutely cannot believe your attitude on this. Of course you mentioned if anybody gives a procedural, they are considered a range nazi. First of all, I have never had to give a procedural because our shooters know the rule book and they know throwing rounds is not a part of the spirit of IDPA and if I did catch a guy doing it, I wouldn't give him a FTDR, I would give him a procedural. Let me ask you Joe, why do we bother to top off? Why don't we just figure out the first aray of targets and download until we can go to slide lock on our last shot. Well all I can say is we completely disagree, and I challenge you to get a ruling from Dru at HQ.

Just want to make one thing clear......I am certainly not talking about swing targets or long shots at the end of the stage, sure if you don't mind the extra time, take an extra shot but I go back to your original post, that is completely illegal in my view.

Ron Durham

[jhgtyre]

Well guys opinions are nice but do either of you have a rule you can quote to support your position? Until one of you comes up with a rule you can quote or a ruling from HQ this is just an argument and not the constructive discussion that this forum is designed for.

-ld

[Mark Perez]

Well guys opinions are nice but do either of you have a rule you can quote to support your position?  Until one of you comes up with a rule you can quote or a ruling from HQ this is just an argument and not the constructive discussion that this forum is designed for.

-ld

Scoring Method:

Vickers Count (for use when shooting speed shoots & scenarios):

Vickers Count scoring is based on assessing the shooter a "Time" penalty for every point the shooter drops from the total "Possible" point score (points down). To score Vickers Count simply take the time it took to complete the string of fire (raw time) and ADD five tenths (.50) of a second for each point down from the possible score. Add any applicable penalties and total to get the Final Score. As many shots as desired may be fired but only the best hits as specified by the course description will be scored (Example: if 2 hits per target are specified in the course description and you fire 3 shots, ONLY the 2 highest scoring hits will count for score).

until that day.

MP

[Duane Thomas]

From the IDPA Rule Book:

Possible Failure to Do Right (20 second penalty)

"Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or techniques."

Examples:

1. Firing extra rounds so that you can reload at a more convenient time. This is VERY hard to call!

[Joe D]

IMO our extra shot discussion will never be answered until Bill Wilson loses some of his anti-IPSC phobia and decides to come up with a more precise and shorter LGB. I do tend to agree with most of the principles of IDPA, some I think are a little on the absurd side. Take out all of the anti-IPSC statements. They use up space without adding anything.

The last two posts were good examples of conflicting rules.

Ron, if you looked back at the last dozen or so matches I SOed you would probably see that I handed out just as many, if not more procedurals than the other SOs. Heck, I have given my wife several and probably score her tougher than the other shooters. You should hear some of her comments on the way home from a match.

Calling Dru can sometimes be a waste of time. For two or more years the Seattle Slug was not legal for ESP, now it is. I have her email. At first it was considered to be just something to add weight. It was pointed out by me and a host of others that as long as the gun did not weigh more than 43 oz. any mag well should be legal, regardless of material, as long as it fits into the box. The exception being tungsten.

Ron, you appear to be like one of my IDPA shooting friends in Atlanta. Bear in mind what I am saying is not being critical, just an observation. Mark would really get up tight when I would ask him questions about a stage. I would want clarification about a portion of a stage. Yes, I was looking for a way to "game" the stage. Mark is a strict rule follower. He wants everyone to shoot the stage exactly the same. I am looking for a better/faster way to shoot the stage.

[Joe D]

I guess what I am trying to say is the dumping round rule is one that should be done away with. It is impossible to say a shooter was dumping if he fired one extra round. Obviously firing two, three or four extra rounds on one target is clearly a case for dumping. You negate any advantage gained by firing three or four extra rounds anyway.

[Mark Perez]

From the IDPA Rule Book:

Possible Failure to Do Right (20 second penalty)

"Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or techniques."

Examples:

1. Firing extra rounds so that you can reload at a more convenient time. This is VERY hard to call!

Thanks Duane - I was looking for that one too , just didn't get far enough into the back of the book .

I have to agree with Joe D on his last statement - how is an SO to know that the extra shots were intentionally made to ''allow for a more convenient reload" ?

until that day

MP

[Duane Thomas]

IMO our extra shot discussion will never be answered until Bill Wilson loses some of his anti-IPSC phobia and decides to come up with a more precise and shorter LGB.

Given all the whining that the IDPA Rule Book isn't precise enough, and needs to have this, that and the other thing spelled out in foot high letters, I don't think we'll ever see it get smaller. Quite the reverse, actually. AAMOF, I don't see how it could get smaller and still address all the issues that have arisen over the years.

[Duane Thomas]

Mark is a strict rule follower. He wants everyone to shoot the stage exactly the same.

Some people just don't seem to understand that "following the rules" does not equate to "everyone has to do it the same way." It's quite possible to follow all the rules and still see a better way to negotiate a stage.

[Joe D]

Duane, I feel that the LGB could be shortened if it did not go into such lengthly explanations of everything. Do away with that long list of holsters. One small paragraph could cover what is legal.

[Duane Thomas]

Do away with that long list of holsters. One small paragraph could cover what is legal.

I hear what you're saying, but frankly it that matter I disagree. IDPA set out with a goal of allowing only concealment or duty appropriate gear. Simply set forth a list of guidelines and you open yourself up to a huge problem of people arguing, "Well, my X holster does TOO meet the guidelines," or an endless stream of inquiries, at matches and to IDPA HQ, "Hey, is my Y holster legal?" In order to avoid that, IDPA gives you a list or holsters that are and aren't legal. "If it's on the legal list, you can use it. If it's on the illegal list, you can't use it. If it's not on either list, send us one, we'll look at it and make a ruling." Simple, straightforward. It works for me.