Start Problems

[mactiger]

Here's another question regarding start procedures, etc. From the new rules:

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

Italics are mine.

Compare this with:

8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

Italics and bold type are mine, again.

Now, how does this reconcile with the "Improper Start Position" thread that Brian started? If the RO can't, per the rules, allow the competitor to start in a position other than the proper start position, how can he allow a competitor who has failed to prepare his gun as directed by the stage briefing, to start in that condition?

Example: a course of fire simply states: "...loaded gun is on the table. You will be seated in the chair, hands on knees." We've already agreed that if the competitor doesn't have his hands on his knees, we'll tell him that he's not in the correct start position, and proceed. What if he didn't load his gun, but merely placed it on the table? Would you inform him of that, and furthermore, per the rules, would you feel obligated to do so before proceeding with the range commands? What if you saw one competitor do this and told him his gun wasn't loaded, but failed to notice on another competitor? What would you do then?

Troy

[Skywalker]

Troy,

I understand your doubts (they have been mines too), but I think this very same issue has been debated in a previous post here in the rules forum (I'll try later to search and post a link).

For the meanwhile, I can tell you about the IPSC rulebook.

According to rule 8.1 (did you actually write this rule in the IPSC rulebook ):

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions:

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

this is the only exception to the general statement in rule 8.3.1:

Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

where the RO is entitled to start a competitor who is not fully complying with the start conditions.

What if you saw one competitor do this and told him his gun wasn't loaded, but failed to notice on another competitor? What would you do then?

That's exactly the reason rule 8.1 was added the sentence concerning no further action on the RO side for not chambering a round.

Bottom line is: you can start a competitor that forgets to chamber a round when the start condition requires it, but you cannot start a competitor that doesn't comply with the start position.

Now, where is Vince "Dick Dastardly" Pinto, this "Muttley" is muttering "medals, medals, medals...I want medals..."

[Skywalker]

Ok,

I found uncle Vinnie's explaination on this issue: here.

[dminor]

Troy,

I had this same debate with Vince. At Factory Gun Nationals last year I had a competitor who loaded and make ready, then quickly settled into the start position. He had chambered a round and then dropped his starter mag and put it away behind his back. As he stood there holstered and ready to go, I was looking at a very large empty hole in his gun were the mag should have been, I proceeded to give him the LAMR command again. He proceeded to do a slide check and was about to reholster again when I gave him one last LAMR. At that point he finally check his mag which of course was missing.

I believe that every competitor should start in the required start position under the rules and following the stage procedure which generally includes a loaded handgun. I think the two contradict each other.

OK Vince, I know you are going to flame me! I love you anyway!

[SmittyFL]

I didn't read all of Vince's post but I don't think this angle was covered. In the case of start position if the shooter is not in the correct position he could be gaining an advantage over the other competitors. If, for example heels are supposed to be against the line and his aren't, he's going to get a better jump than the other shooters. In the case of an empty chamber he is only hurting himself.

That's what I see as the major difference.

[mactiger]

Sky, I read that whole thread a while back. I just happen to believe that the two rules are contradictory, in principle and in practice. If an RO is allowed to correct a competitor who is not in the proper start position, then he should be allowed to correct an improperly loaded gun. After all, the RO could miss the fact that the competitor wasn't in the proper start position, in some circumstances. My point, and I've discussed this with Vince several times, is that we should be trying to assist the competitor at all times, even if we sometimes miss something. We are human, after all, and make mistakes.

FWIW, I did not write that rule, and in fact argued pretty strongly against it, for the same reasons I stated above.

I thought that given the "improper start" thread that this might be a good time to revisit the subject.

(I'm about as hardheaded as Darth, even with the helmet. )

Troy

[Vince Pinto]

And Smitty gets a gold star for demonstrating an excellent understanding of the rules and the thinking behind them

[Skywalker]

Smitty,

you are right, the link I posted is where uncle Vinnie explained where the "no further action from the RO side" stuff comes from.

The discussion about rules 8.1 and 8.3.1 possibly conflicting is in this post.

And this is the bottom line according to Darth.

Moreover, mactiger, I just happened to notice that 8.1 refers to handgun ready condition, while 8.3.1 refers to competitor start position thus I'm not sure the two rules are actually conflicting.

[Vince Pinto]

And young Skywalker gets a gold star too for understanding the difference between Rule 8.1 and Rule 8.3.1

[Skywalker]

Wof, wof, hehehehehehe !

[mactiger]

Gold Stars not withstanding Uncle Vinny, (and I agree with Smitty that the basic difference is possible advantage gained versus screwing oneself into the ground ), I beg to differ on what 8.3.1 refers to. While it does reference assuming the "required ready position", that's not the entire focus of the rule, which is titled "Load and Make Ready". It also states: "...and prepare the handgun in accordance with the stage briefing" among other things. For example, would you allow a competitor to begin without eye or hearing protection? Sure, it's a safety thing, but it's also spelled out in 8.3.1 as something the competitor "must" do.

Trust me, I do understand the rules relating to loading or not loading the gun. I'm just saying that I think the rules conflict in principle, especially since 8.3.1 does indeed state that the competitor "must" prepare the handgun accordingly. And, I must admit, it goes against my grain to let a guy start knowing I'd witnessed him screwing up but didn't do anything about it.

With all the links I see posted (asked and answered, Counselor, move on) I suppose I'm beating a dead horse here, but Brian's question got me thinking about this--always a dangerous thing.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

I'd hate to go re-read, but I am pretty sure I debated the opposite position that Vince held (tee-hee...debate is good).

Troy, Dminor, & others,

Would you be willing to grant a reshoot (under our current USPSA rulebook) to the shooter that started without the gun properly loaded?

[mactiger]

Flex, IIRC from reading those posts this morning, you did debate that with Vince. I also seem to recall that he advocated a reshoot for a gun with an empty chamber. Vince, is that correct?

FWIW, I can see Vince's reasoning on the empty chamber thing. Unfortunately, most of the time (and it doesn't happen that often, but still) what I see is a shooter who loads his chamber, removes his loader magazine, and then forgets to put in a full one. I can't see granting a reshoot for that, mainly because I don't think the RO should allow it to happen.

Troy

[Phil Dunlop]

We had a similar situation at our recent North Island Champs.

The stage procedure required the loaded gun and all magazines to be used to be placed on a table. One competitor forgot to put the mags down and was awarded a procedural when he reloaded off the belt.

The RO had not noticed the error at the start and would no doubt have pointed it out to the shooter if he had.

In the end the competitor accepted the procedural, but I'm not sure that he should have.

P.D.

[Flexmoney]

I can't see granting a reshoot for that, mainly because I don't think the RO should allow it to happen. 

Troy

Hmmmm,

That kinda sound opposite of what I thought your position was?

If the RO has some say (responsibility)...then, shouldn't the shooter get a reshoot?

I think that is where Vince and I might have neded up...

He was putting the resonsibility completely on the shooter. I wondered if the RO should start the shooter?

I don't know...but, I do know that I would hate to win a match because my competition didn't have a mag in their gun.

[mactiger]

I see what you mean, Flex. I gotta think about that a bit more.

Let me see if I understand the question:

If the RO doesn't tell the competitor that he hasn't: a) loaded his chamber, or put in a full magazine, should he get a reshoot? (Despite what 8.1 says.)

My basic position is this: the RO should be allowed to tell the competitor that he hasn't loaded his gun. In the interest of consistency, Vince and others say that the RO should say nothing, thereby treating everyone equally, and not giving the appearance of helping some and not helping others. I agree that the time saved would be considerable and could make a difference in the final results. I also saw questions about this being coaching, rather than "assisting" the shooter.

Gotta think about it...

Troy

In the case Phil cited, IMO the RO should have told the competitor "mags on the table", because he wasn't fulfilling the start requirements for the course.

[BDH]

Wow, great dialog. Sorry I wasn't in it earlier (that d*mn work thing got in the way again )

Here is a real world example of the exact thing that happened to me.......

Event: 2001 Nationals, Barry, IL (you know, the one that got all screwed up because some #*^(*#% decided to fly airplanes full of people into the Twin Towers in New York and competitors could not get into the USA)

Stage: Stage Two - Nap Time

Start Position: Sitting at table. Arms crossed in front of you on table. Head down on arms as if taking a nap. Loaded gun in holster (this is my best recollection of the start position).

RO: Potential future Jr. Jedi Brian Hanna

Competitor: Member of the Jamaican National Team.

BDH: LAMR

Competitor: standing up, chambers a round, holsters, assumes the position. Then goes through a couple practice draws from the head down start position.

BDH: waiting for the competitor to assume the correct start position

Competitor: drops mag, seats another mag, drops mag and places it on the table. Then assumes the correct start positon.

Little Angel on BDH's Shoulder: 'This guy is sitting in the start position with a loaded gun, but no mag in the well. Do you want to start him that way after all the trouble he went through to get here? Think about it..... it isn't like he is going to win the match anyway?

BDH: But I can not coach him. I commanded him to load his gun, and he did load it. Who am I to say something now? Maybe he WANTS to start with only one round, and then is going to pull off some wild move to stuff a mag in the well?

Little Angel on BDH's Shoulder: How would you feel if you knew the RO knew you screwed up on loading, and then you let him start that way?

BDH: Hmmm, that's true. Again he isn't competing for the title. Okay, I got it!

BDH: LAMR

Competitor: no response

BDH: LAMR

Competitor: no response

BDH: LAMR

Competitor: turns his head slightly toward me, while reaching around with his strong hand to feel his EMPTY mag well

Competitor: seats a mag, looks around and says, "Thank you MON" (in my best Jamaican) and then re-assumes the start position

BDH: Are you ready. Standby. Beep.

I have stuggled with this call for the past couple of years. I have bounced it off NROI staff that I absolutely respect. In some cases, I got the 'you screwed up and coached the competitor'. In other cases, I got the 'well, it was a little unorthodox, but I think you did the right thing'.

Not asking anyone to comment, pass judgement, etc., but I still think that I sleep better at night thinking that 1) I gave him his best chance to run the stage, and 2) that that was how I would have liked to be treated.

Was it a correct call? Well, let's see how this thread plays out....

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Part of the issue is consistency. If we hold the competitor 100% responsible for the condition of his gun during unloading (i.e. if it goes "Bang" after "If clear, hammer down, holster" he hits the showers), surely the competitor should be 100% responsible for his gun during loading too.

[Nik Habicht]

we hold the competitor 100% responsible for the condition of his gun during unloading (i.e. if it goes "Bang" after "If clear, hammer down, holster" he hits the showers), surely the competitor should be 100% responsible for his gun during loading too.

I think that holds true on any loaded and holstered to start stages. In the case of the nonstandard start position however, that specifies competitor in spot A, Gun (and possibly mags) in X condition in Spot B, reminders need to be made or the R.O. should refrain from starting the shooter until he's assumed the proper ready position....

I'm pretty sure we don't have any non-standard unloading routines....

[mactiger]

Well, taking another look at Brian's example, 8.1 technically wouldn't apply. The competitor loaded his chamber. He didn't put a magazine in the gun, which is probably what actually happens most of the time. How do we deal with this situation? That's what I've been thinking about with this thread. I don't think that Brian did anybody a disservice by repeating LAMR. Do we want to cause a competitor to "speed load" under the clock, thereby inviting a potentially unsafe act? And, is this situation covered under the rules?

Troy

[Loves2Shoot]

Do we want to cause a competitor to "speed load" under the clock, thereby inviting a potentially unsafe act?  And, is this situation covered under the rules?

Troy

Don't we do that all the time? Isn't it called a reload? Life is an unsafe act, putting a magazine in a gun is much safer.

It's called personal acountability. If making sure you have full mag in your gun isn't part of your start routine, then you might want to make it part of it. I personally yank on my mag as part of the LAMR just to make sure it is full seated. Draw one shot reload is a pretty embarassing thing to do. If the RO sees no mag of course help the competitor out, but it is the shooter's responsibility to LAMR.

[tightloop]

Sometimes you just have to do what feels right, in either direction...

[TonyH]

I've got a question, why was he allowed to take a couple of practice draws after a round was loaded into the chamber?

[ivanhu]

I believe that every competitor should start in the required start position under the rules and following the stage procedure which generally includes a loaded handgun. I think the two contradict each other.

Hi Denise,

As I see, it's not the ROs job to check the gun of the competitor - it's the job of the competitor himself. That's because:

1. It is the shooter who ultimately and exclusively responsible for his gun. The new rules even emphasize this fact when changed the range command to "If clear"; I'll have hard times practicing it until I'll learn it fully...

2. The RO is not supposed to spot out each such occurrance, and it's not enough if we're fair, we also must seem to be fair.

3. There are shooters who actually prefer to start with empty chamber, mag inserted. For example, since this is the duty carry state of the handfun for the Hungarian police, therefore they prefer to start that way.

And this policy is not new, IMHO that is the way the RO's were taught for years.

As for the supposed controversity - I can easily check whether all objects are on the place they should be placed, whether the body position of the shooter is as it should be, but I simply cannot check his gun whether it's properly loaded, unless I ask him to let me inspect it. I mean, while I can check whether the shooter has assumed the correct starting position in a blink of eye without any physical contact, I cannot do the same with the gun.

[Flexmoney]

I've got a question, why was he allowed to take a couple of practice draws after a round was loaded into the chamber?

I don't think there is anything illegal about that in the current USPSA rulebook...unless the gun goes off. Then, of course, it is a DQ under US10.3.2.1 for U.G.H. (Unsafe Gun Handling).